Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/C. T. Mathew


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. the sources adduced do not seem to have swayed the direction of the debate or other active participants Spartaz Humbug! 04:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

C. T. Mathew

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Unable to find any reliable sources to show that the subject exists, which is a pity because if he does, he passes WP:PROFESSOR. Extensively searched Google News Archive and Google Books to no avail and the websites of Caldicut Medical College, Government Dental College, Caldicut and University of Caldicut make no mention of him. Without a reference this WP:BLP cannot be kept, hopfully someone else will have more luck than me. J04n(talk page) 00:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions.  — J04n(talk page) 00:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions.  — J04n(talk page) 00:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Question. Which category of WP:Prof does he pass? I can't find a single citation. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC).
 * answer: five, he had a Chair appointment (according to the article) at the University of Caldicut, but I agree with you, without sources he does not pass. J04n(talk page) 09:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete. Essentially all information in the article fails WP:V. No evidence of satisfying either WP:PROF or WP:BIO. Nsk92 (talk) 05:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 *  Delete . The subject apparently satisfies criterion #6 of WP:PROF as he held the position of the director of a notable academic institution. However, none of the material, including the directorship is verifiable. I am willing to reconsider my !vote if somebody comes up with sources. Salih  ( talk ) 15:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Changed to weak keep in the light of the source unearthed by Msrasnw. Weak because the large portion of the article is still unverifiable and hence WP:OR. Salih  ( talk ) 12:48, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. Even if sources existed it would be hard to overcome the barrier of zero citations. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC).
 * I don't mean to give you a hard time, especially because we agree that the article should be deleted, but if sources existed we could add citations. J04n(talk page) 01:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Reference for Directorship of Dental School: On DENTAL EDUCATION IN KERALA. we have this .. College was shifted to the new building in 1984.Dr C.T. Mathew was appointed as Director of Calicut Dental College.In 1984 Dr B.R.R.Varma was transferred back to Trivandrum as the Director of the Dental College. is on the site: http://www.idakerala.org/historydentaledu.php. Hard too find much else - but his Directorship of a Dental School is now cited albeit rather briefly. Is this Directorship sufficient for WP:Prof 6 The person has held a major highest-level appointed academic post at an academic institution? (Msrasnw (talk) 11:25, 27 August 2010 (UTC))
 * comment, good work finging something, I tried and came up with nothing. Don't think being a director paases muster but let's see if anyone else is swayed. J04n(talk page) 15:28, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep: Although I can't find much else, I think the citation for Directorship of Calicut Dental College - can be judged sufficent to pass WP:Prof #6. By my reading of the article Prof Mathew seems highly notable within Keralan Dentistry: Head of the Department of Dentistry, founder-director of the Dental College, Professor of Post-Graduate studies in A.B. Shetty Institute of Dental Sciences, member of the Dental council of India and President of the Kerala Dental Council. I guess that most of his achievments are recorded in pre-internet sources in India and most of us would have difficulty in accessing these. These would all seem verifiable in principle. By my reading of WP:V not everything need actually be attributed. WP:V requires that anything challenged or likely to be challenged needs sources. I guess my argument would be we have enough to satisfy WP:Prof #6 and that the rest is OK unless we have editors who wish challenge the truth of the rest of the claims and they should have requests for citations for those bits or that those bits (but not the whole article) be deleted. (Msrasnw (talk) 21:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC))
 * Comment, as the nominator I am not opposed to the article being kept with the source found by Msrasnw. However, I think it's too borderline a case to withdraw my nomination. J04n(talk page) 12:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Another two possible refs: There are a couple of refs for a Prof CT Mathew being prinicpal of another HE institute: "Between 1981 - 86 Prof CT Mathew was Principal of the Mar Thoma College, Tiruvalla"   this is a Christian educational establishment. And we have (or had) a claim in the article that our CT Mathew was active in the Keralan Christian community. Is it the same person? It seems possible if it were a part time post - but I am not convinced and guess there might have been - be two Prof. C T Mathews.
 * Refs:
 * http://www.marthomacollege.org/aboutus/profile.htm
 * Commonwealth universities yearbook, Volume 3 Association of Commonwealth Universities, Association of Universities of the British Commonwealth Association of Commonwealth Universities., 1986 p1627
 * PS we might need two C. T. Mathew's pages (not one or none :)  )
 * Best wishes (Msrasnw (talk) 11:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC))
 * * PPS These look almost certainly like another CT Mathew - so perhaps I might/ought to strike them from here. (Msrasnw (talk) 09:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC))
 * I have taken a look at the sources, but this case is still a solid delete, IMO. WP:PROF#6 is really meant for higher positions, like a university president/chancellor. Sometimes this criterion could be used for lower level positions (e.g. a Provost at a major university), but there would have to be significant evidence of additional coverage in such cases. The sources found by Msrasnw contain very brief mentions and a rather small amount of verifiable information, plus it is not even clear that some of these sources really refer to the subject of the article. For a truly notable academic (or even a notable academic administrator) there would be some additional evidence of their impact apart from the fact of having held some post - at least some amount of citability of their scholarly work, some news-coverage, etc. Here we do not have any of that at all.  With so little verifiable information, I do not believe that a biographical article is justified here. Nsk92 (talk) 18:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * In fact, let me quote from Item 13 in WP:PROF: "Criterion 6 may be satisfied, for example, if the person has held the post of President or Chancellor (or Vice-Chancellor in countries where this is the top academic post) of a significant accredited college or university, director of a highly regarded notable academic independent research institute or center (which is not a part of a university), president of a notable national or international scholarly society, etc. Lesser administrative posts (Provost, Dean, Department Chair, etc) are generally not sufficient to satisfy Criterion 6, although exceptions are possible on a case-by-case basis (e.g. being a Provost of a major university may sometimes qualify)." This seems directly on point here: being the head of the Dental College within Calicut Medical College is essentially a Dean-level position and so it does not qualify for WP:PROF#6. Nsk92 (talk) 18:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JForget  01:19, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Comment. Despite the items dug up by the conscientious research of Msrasnw my delete still stands. The Dental College is too obscure an institution to count for WP:Prof #6. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:41, 4 September 2010 (UTC).
 * I think, the Dental College, Calicut is not that obscure. It is the second Dental College established by the Government of Kerala, a state of about 30 million population. Salih  ( talk ) 03:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * At the time C.T.Mathew was there, the college was not an independent college but a department and then a school within the Calicut Medical College. This comes from the homepage of the Dental College itself where its history is explained:. It says there that it was first a "a small department of Dentistry at Calicut Medical College" started in 1969, expanded to "a Dental wing with four specialties in 1974". Then "a B.D.S.Course was started with thirty students in the year 1982." Then "In 1986, the first B.D.S students graduated from this institution" and "Recognition of B.D.S Degree of University of Calicut was granted from September 1986 onwards." According to the C. T. Mathew article, he retired in 1988.  The Dental College site says that: "In 1996 the dental college was given independent status with its on principal and complete office setup. Full administrative powers were delegated only in 2001.". So by the time C.T.Mathew retired as its head in 1988, the Dental Colllege was still a division of the Calicut Medical College, and its head would have had a Dean-level position, at most. Moreover, this was a small division, as the Dental College webpage goes on to say: "In 1996, the number of B.D.S seats was increased from thirty to forty" - that is really small. This kind of position is not at all what WP:PROF#6 has in mind; see a quote from tem 13 in WP:PROF above:"Lesser administrative posts (Provost, Dean, Department Chair, etc) are generally not sufficient to satisfy Criterion 6, although exceptions are possible on a case-by-case basis (e.g. being a Provost of a major university may sometimes qualify)."   Moreover, apart from issues of notability, essentially all information in the  C. T. Mathew article is unverifiable and fails WP:V and has no sources at all, not even self-published ones. Nsk92 (talk) 04:31, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I am fully aware of these facts, and was not arguing a case for C. T. Mathew. I just, wanted to state that the Dental College, Calicut is not an obscure institution, at least at present. Salih  ( talk ) 04:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: The Dental College seems notable in Kerala and via his work like that he seems to have got Membership of the Dental council of India and Presidency of the Kerala Dental Council and I think these would seem his most important achievements but sadly these are as yet unsourced. But do we doubt these? (Msrasnw (talk) 08:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC))
 * We doubt nothing. We merely require claims to be sourced. Xxanthippe (talk) 09:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC).


 * Another minor thing: There is a little article in The Hindu Tuesday, Mar 13, 2007 Reviewing our CT Mathew's translating of the Sebastian book - http://hindu.com/2007/03/13/stories/2007031301910200.htm - The only bits are :English translation of the memoirs of P.J. Sebastian, who was a frontline activist in social and political struggles in 1930s, has been brought out by C.T. Mathew, the former Director of Government Dental College in Kozhikode. Dr. Mathew has added a short general history of the period when Sebastian was active in politics and public life. "This would lead to better understanding, especially for those who are not well-acquainted with Kerala history"(Msrasnw (talk) 23:53, 5 September 2010 (UTC))


 * Another potentially useful but problematic ref: How about this http://pullamkalam.net/PJS_autobiography.pdf On page 10 it has a brief biography of our Prof Mathew including all the major details - including Presidency of the Kerala Dental Council. The book is MY LIFE - AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY - P. J. Sebastian published by Pullamkalam Family Fraternity - Perumpanachy P.O., Changanassery - 686536 - Kerala, India First Published in Malayalam : May 1973 Tranalsated into English September 2006 by C T Mathew. Although to some degree self published it seems to have been reviewed by The Hindu (see above)  which might allow us to give it some credence! (Msrasnw (talk) 19:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC))
 * * Another little publication:Jacob PP, Mathew CT. Occlusal pat­tern study of school children of Trivandrum City. J Ind Dent Assoc 1969;41:271-4. - Citd by Doifode VV, Ambadekar NN, Lanewar AG. Assessment of oral health status and its association with some epidemiological factors in population of Nagpur, India. Indian J Med Sci 2000;54:261-9 and THE EPIDEMIOLOGY OF DENTAL OCCLUSION: A CRITICAL APPRAISAL John D. Jago LDS, MDSc Journal of Public Health Dentistry Volume 34, Issue 2, pages 80–93, June 1974 (Msrasnw (talk) 09:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC))


 * Keep Even the nominator thought he'd be notable if it could be shown he existed, and that much has clearly been shown.    DGG ( talk ) 06:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The fact that someone exist and the existence of that person is verifiable does not make them notable. The nominator is unfamiliar with WP:PROF, as the discussion above fairly clearly demonstrates. The subject clearly does not qualify for WP:PROF#6, and there is no evidence of citability of his work (let alone anything like significant citability) required for WP:PROF#1. Absent that, we only have WP:BIO and WP:N to go by, but among the sources found by Msrasnw there are just a few brief mentions of the subject and nothing coming even close to significant and specific coverage of him. Moreover, essentially all information in the article (apart from having been the Director of the Dental College, which is a one sentence worth of information) still fails WP:V and is not based on any kind of sources, not even self-published ones, and not even sources failing WP:RS. There is simply nothing. I just don't see how keeping this article could possibly be justified under these circumstances, especially given that this is a BLP article where the sourcing really needs to be adequate. Nsk92 (talk) 19:28, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
 * * Comment: This source (which as argued above seems credible) argues that "The major part of his career was spent in Calicut where he began as Head of the Department of Dentistry. The department of dentistry underwent systematic expansion and became a full-fledged dental college with graduate and post graduate dental training of which he was founder"  Is this leading the Gov Dental college to independece and then to the Uni/Medial School. If so this seems to me possible evidence of WP:Prof6 it also refers to his membership of the Dental Council of India and his Presidency of the Kerala Dental Council and was also member of the National Board of Dentistry- which might be evidence of WP:Prof 7 or WP:Prof 3 depending on interpretation. (Msrasnw (talk) 21:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC))


 * Comment. There is another AfD debate on the article Proof by verbosity. I have recommended a keep there as the process is not uncommon. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC).
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.