Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CKUR-FM


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Northern Native Broadcasting (Terrace). There appears to be a fairly strong consensus against keeping the article at this time. What to do with it is not as clear. However, a preponderance favors redirection which I think works. Ad Orientem (talk) 00:10, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

CKUR-FM

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WP:TOOSOON article about a radio station which received a license from the CRTC to launch literally yesterday, but has not yet actually commenced broadcasting. WP:NMEDIA, however, does not permit advance articles about stations that still only exist on paper -- it requires that the station is actually on the air before it qualifies for an article (per the criterion about "established broadcast history".) In the meantime, the license can certainly be discussed in Media in Vancouver and the article on its parent company -- but there actually has to be a signal getting transmitted before it becomes eligible for its own standalone article. Bearcat (talk) 21:22, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of British Columbia-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 21:22, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Radio-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 21:22, 15 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep You'd have a point if it was a proposed radio station that had applied for but not yet been granted a license but given that a license has been approved and it will be going on the air within a year there's no reason to delete. We've had articles for radio and TV stations not yet on the air before for instance CJRU and CIND-FM both hard articles a year or so before going on the air. If the article is deemed premature then Merge with Northern Native Broadcasting (Terrace) which is the company that owns the station. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 21:49, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Nope. NMEDIA explicitly states that on the air is the condition, and "licensed but not yet launched" is WP:TOOSOON. It is not rare for a station to get a license but then fail to launch and have its license expire, which is why NMEDIA has been tightened up to require that we wait until the station is on the air. What we did the better part of a decade ago is irrelevant to what we do now — and ever since the comprehensive cleanup project in which we ended up having to delete hundreds of articles about licensed stations that never launched and had their licenses expire unbuilt, consensus changed and what we do now is wait until the station has launched.
 * Also, CJRU never had a premature article at all — The Scope already existed as a fully operational Internet radio service that was able to clear WP:GNG on those grounds regardless of whether it cleared our notability standards for AM/FM radio stations or not. It had an article for clearing GNG as an active internet radio service, not for being a licensed but as yet unlaunched terrestrial radio station. Bearcat (talk) 22:14, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * And CIND-FM? In any case, do you have any objection to merging the article with Northern Native Broadcasting (Terrace)? Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 01:03, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * CIND-FM falls under "what we did before all the phantom articles about stations that never existed forced consensus about this issue to change". As for merging, kindly note the part of my nomination statement where I explicitly stated that "In the meantime, the license can certainly be discussed in Media in Vancouver and the article on its parent company". Bearcat (talk) 13:21, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * So then you are not requesting a deletion but a merge. Perhaps the AFD template can be swapped with a mergeto template then. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 15:23, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The content that has to go into the company's article would not be a full verbatim merger of everything present here, but a brief one or two sentence acknowledgement of the fact that the license was granted. And furthermore, the call sign is only presumptive at this time — since it hasn't been formally assigned by Industry Canada as of yet, the fact that NNB used this call sign in its application does not mean they're necessarily going to get this call sign. (That's not a simple formality of a station automatically getting any call sign it wants — there are reasons why a station might not get the call sign it presumptively gave itself in the application process. See CKLU-FM for an example of that very thing happening.) So there aren't grounds for the call sign to be redirected to the company article either, which would also be required by a "merge" proposal. So for both of those reasons, I'm not requesting a "merger" at this time — the content is more than we can justify at the present time, and the eventual title isn't a done deal yet either, so the correct solution here is a delete, without prejudice against restoration once the station actually meets the requirements for a standalone article, not a merger with significant content or title retention. Bearcat (talk) 16:04, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
 * According to their CRTC submission, Industry Canada has granted them the call letters. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 23:49, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Firstly, the source present in the article says that exactly nowhere. Secondly, the CKUR-FM call sign doesn't produce any search results in the IC call sign database, which it would if it had already been assigned to them. And thirdly, IC can't assign a call sign in advance of the CRTC approving the license — that's simply not how the process works. Bearcat (talk) 00:04, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * As I said, it was in their submission to the CRTC: "The proposed radio service is to be called Vancouver Urban Aboriginal Radio, with the call letters CKUR 106.3FM. CKUR call letters have been approved by Spectrum Management Operations Branch Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada/Government of Canada." Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 00:44, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Again, firstly, that would be reflected in the Spectrum database. But it isn't. And secondly, call signs are not and cannot be approved before the license is approved, precisely because of the possibility that the license might get denied. The company can certainly file an inquiry to see if the desired call sign is available, which IC/Spectrum will certainly respond to with a yes or a no, but IC cannot and will not reserve the call sign for an as yet unapproved license. If an existing station puts in a request to change its existing call sign to CKUR before the Vancouver station finishes the paperwork necessary to actually secure it (which, again, it cannot have done on a pending license application, but can only initiate now that the license has been approved...and is still not a mere formality that can be finished in two minutes flat, but in fact takes weeks) then that other station will get dibs on it. So a station doesn't own the call sign just because its own self-published correspondence about itself says that — what that letter says can easily be an overheated misrepresentation of "Spectrum Management Operations has confirmed that the call sign is available". It doesn't own the call sign until the call sign is listed as assigned in the public Spectrum database, which as of today it is not. Bearcat (talk) 17:25, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "what that letter says can easily be an overheated misrepresentation of "Spectrum Management Operations has confirmed that the call sign is available". While that's interesting speculation it's groundless as the List of Available Callsign For Broadcasting Stations does not have CKUR listed. Why? Because those call letters have been reserved by new Vancouver station. Earlier you said "the eventual title isn't a done deal yet", now you concede that the call letters have been reserved so I'm glad we're making progress. The suggestion that the call letters won't be CKUR and that therefore do not merit being the name of an article lacks merit. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 17:42, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Again, the call sign cannot be considered "reserved" until the public Spectrum Management database brings up an assigned record for it. Prior to the license approval, all the company can possibly have done is to submit an inquiry as to whether the call sign was available — they can have done nothing to initiate the process of reserving it until the CRTC application was approved. But that only happened three business days ago, and the process of reserving a call sign takes more than three days to complete and so it cannot have been completed yet. Again: a call sign is not "reserved" until the Spectrum database brings up an assigned record for it, which as of today the Spectrum database does not. I'm not making any speculation here at all; I know how the process works. Bearcat (talk) 17:51, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * So why isn't the call sign listed as available on this list then? List of Available Callsign For Broadcasting Stations. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 18:48, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Don't know, and it doesn't matter. That document has no official status as proof of anything; it's just a convenience brochure that IC's SMO division makes available to prospective broadcasting applicants so they know what they're allowed to ask for. The only valid proof that a call sign has been locked in remains the existence of an assigned record for it in the SMO database. Bearcat (talk) 17:03, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Please be pithy. Be concise. Confine your comments to only that which is germane to the discussion. Cite policy and guidelines where possible. But above all, be brief!
 * Rather than delete, I think it would be more constructive to redirect to Northern Native Broadcasting (Terrace) until CKUR-FM begins testing or until a month or so before their launch date, in order to preserve the page history. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 02:11, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete Another good Bearcat nom; until it is confirmed to be at the very minimum testing, we have to assume it has no notability and we have no deadline to post an article about this; we can also assume that there will always be the usual CRTC license negotiation so that they can get on the air with what they say, but will also appeal to listeners.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 05:53, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem (talk) 23:40, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Northern Native Broadcasting (Terrace), at least for now: Obviously it is too soon for this station to have an article, considering that they have until June 2019 to go on the air (though they tentatively plan to go on a year before then) and there isn't any presumption of notability for as-yet-unlaunched stations. That said, the station is mentioned in Northern Native Broadcasting's article — and most of the content of the CKUR-FM article, which at this point is pretty much all to say about the station, appears to in that article, anyway. Because of that and the fact that the station does appear to have picked a tentative call sign (even if it hasn't necessarily been formally assigned by Industry Canada yet — but from what I've noticed, it's pretty rare for a new Canadian radio station to have its call sign be known this early in the process), a redirect might actually be useful and valid in this case. (I wouldn't entirely object to deletion, either, but overall the circumstances here are a bit different from other AfDs over the past year about too-soon station articles.) -- WC  Quidditch  &#9742;   &#9998;  23:52, 22 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.