Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cakewalk Sonar


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was: -- RHaworth 09:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * for the ten "Cakewalk wiki" articles: speedy delete at creator's request.
 * for Cakewalk Sonar itself: convert into a normal article.

Cakewalk Sonar
plus ten more articles included in what links here.

Attempt to create a wiki dedicated to Cakewalk's Sonar digital audio software. Sorry, no. Wikipedia is not a free host or webspace provider. -- RHaworth 00:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * My name is Scott, and I am the person creating this set of articles. Or trying to -- they are being deleted before I even finish editing the basic outline for them! First of all, I have no connection to Sonar or its manufacturer other than the fact that I use their program.  The idea for creating a Sonar wiki came about on a huge Sonar forum, due to the fact that there is tons of great information there, but it's not systematized, and as on all forums it is hard to find the prime information and harder to separate it from everything that surrounds it.  Plus, Wikipedia's article format is ideal for this sort of systematization of the creme de la creme of information -- there are entire books written about using this software, so it is obviously information that is in demand and useful.  At the forum, the strategy was to create an outline and then have users go and fill it in. But that takes a bit of time -- so I beseech you to please give us a week or two to get up to snuff. Thanks, ScottS Sadowsky 01:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment -- Scott, we're not out to destroy any kind of good work you're doing, the problem is that this just isn't the place for what you want to do. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, which means we have articles that describe things.  On the other hand, Wikipedia is not a user guide.  If you want to create a wiki to serve as a user guide, you can follow the links below on starting up your own wiki.  Wikia offers free hosting, running the same software as wikipedia.  You're welcome to stick around here and write an article about the software, just don't turn it into an instruction manual. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 22:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete as per above comments Hello32020 01:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * delete wikipedia is not an instruction manualBenon 01:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete The "how-to" articles (Wikipedia is not an instruction manual nor is it a free webhost) and Keep Cakewalk Sonar (as an article describing the product). I'd suggest reading this article about how to start your own Wiki. OhNo itsJamie Talk 01:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete as per the above two comments. Comment: Scott, you seem to be confused about the nature of Wikipedia. WP is not a host for other, smaller Wikis. It is an encyclopedia. Wikia, on the other hand, is a host for Wikis. You may want to inquire about setting up your Wiki there. &spades; P  M  C  &spades; 01:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Delete as per above comments AmitDeshwar 01:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Strong Keep. Topic is encyclopedic and worthy of inclusion in Wiki. As far as I can tell, it meets all relevant criteria. If not, we had better review aritcles for Logic Audio and Cubase too. Encise 02:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)Encise

Mostly Delete I think we should have an article on Cakewalk Sonar itself, otherwise delete per above. Dave 02:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment -Baffled I'm frankly baffled at the speed and zeal with which the Sonar articles are being deleted. This is not an attempt to get "free web hosting" (which is a wee bit offensive) nor to put up useless garbage or advertising. It is an attempt to create an encyclopedic collection of the very best knowledge culled from over 404,000 forum posts (http://forum.cakewalk.com/tt.asp?forumid=2) by world-class mastering engineers, mixing engineers, musicians, acousticians, home recordists and others. If this content is not appropriate for Wikipedia, I must ask you why Wikipedia happily hosts articles about virtually every other piece software used for audio recording, but not Sonar:


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ableton_Live
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Audition
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubase
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protools
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_Pro
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XO_Wave
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Forge
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason_(program)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Performer
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuendo
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracktion
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_Platinum

And that, in spite of the fact that many of these articles are blatant advertisements!

If you (editors) believe that the Sonar digital audio software is not an appropriate subject for Wikipedia, kindly be consistent and remove the above pages for other digital audio software. Otherwise, please let us try and create our Sonar articles. Thanks,Scott S Sadowsky 01:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment You seem to have missed the point. The purpose of this nomination is not to remove Sonar software from Wikipedia. The purpose is to delete a massive user guide for Sonar. None of the other softwares you cite above have anything like the user guide you're trying to build here, and if someone tried to create one, it would be nominated for deletion the same way. Fan-1967 01:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment - citing other articles that should be deleted isn't an argument for saving this one. Nobody will stop you creating an article for Sonar Cakewalk if it is encyclopedic and you can establish that it is a notable piece of software. What isn't acceptable is to create a wiki within wikipedia consisting of hints and tips and how to guides. Yomangani talk 02:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment User guides", advertising, inconsistencies So encyclopedic information about a piece of software is not permissible, but blatant advertising is? In any case if someone says he is seeking, for example, to exterminate all birds, but only "happens" to kill crows, pointing out his failure to follow his own stated goals certainly is an argument. Finally, the fact that the Sonar info is broken up into several different pages is simply to make editing less overwhelming -- not to create a separate wiki. You must admit that dealing with the back-end (editing view) is no small challenge once there's a fair amount of text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by S Sadowsky (talk • contribs)
 * Comment. I have a very nice solution for you, Scott.  1) Get a Cakewalk Sonar wiki up at wikia.  2) Place Sonar Cakewalk instruction manual type information in Cakewalk Sonar wiki.  3) Create a Cakewalk Sonar article that describes the software, not a howto.  4) Link to the Cakewalk Sonar wiki from the Cakewalk Sonar article.  What you really want is for people to access this information, right?  So having it in its own wiki will be cleaner and easier to maintain.  Just a suggestion.  ColourBurst 03:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Excellent suggestion. OhNo itsJamie Talk 03:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete per above, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information--TBC TaLk?!? 03:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete. The author of the page, S Sadowsky, has requested deletion --TBC TaLk?!? 15:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Wikipedia is not an instruction manual. The article could be rewritten to describe the software package, and might be OK, if it met WP:SOFTWARE, but not in its current state. eaolson 03:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep and cleanup. Current article is pretty bad, but Sonar is massively notable. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  03:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete and start over with actual content instead of a giant tentacled how-to guide based on forum posts. Opabinia regalis 04:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per TBC. &mdash; Khoikhoi 04:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment from original nominator. Yes of course, an article about the software will be fine - after the style of those which Scott has kindly listed above. My objection is to the other ten articles. -- RHaworth 05:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per TBC. Just make all of the page blanking go away D: Ryūlóng 06:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * PLEASE DELETE ALL PAGES I'm the creator of the pages in question. Please delete them all as soon as possible. This is clearly not the place for us to be. S Sadowsky 06:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If above comment is indeed from the creator, I suggest we close this thing and speedy delete the lot. - Mgm|(talk) 10:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to Wikibooks. We probably ought to have an article on Cakewalk Sonar, a program that surely does meet software notability guidelines, and that briefly describes the capabilities and history of the program.  A detailed user guide such as was apparently planned here is a how-to, and as such would be Wikibooks material. - Smerdis of Tlön 14:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete Does not contain actual information, appears to be advertising. Perhaps collecting all the links into one article would work, but as is, this article doesn't provide enough information to justify keeping it around.Dekar 20:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.