Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Canadian Memorial Church & Centre for Peace


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was DELETE. J I P | Talk 15:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Canadian Memorial Church & Centre for Peace
Non-notable building or local church. The article appears to be advertising, self-promotion, or vanity: almost two-thirds of the edits are by User:Canadianmemorial; all but two other edits (including my placing a prod template, which was subsequently removed) are by editors who have contributed to no other articles. Much of the article is unverified or POV. Agent 86 00:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Returns only 48 hits on Google.AmiDaniel (talk) 00:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. If it was a more legitimate memorial in a building that happened to be a church, it'd be different. But I doubt this is the place where Canadians go remember those lost in war. SliceNYC 01:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. -- Alias Flood 01:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Popcorn2008 02:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)Popcorn2008
 * Delete per nom. — Natha  n  ( talk ) / 04:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. Agree that the content is self-promotion, but even a restrictive Google search yields 12,000 hits which is high for a church. Deet 06:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * What search would that be? Searching for "Canadian Memorial Church" as a string, excluding Wikipedia gives only 395 hits.  Not doing it as a string would pick up almost any online obituary for any Canadian with a memorial service at a church.  GRBerry 13:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems you're right. I think I must have missed a plus sign in one of the two terms the first time I tried it. Deet 01:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. While of course it would be preferable to have these facts referenced to an outside source, the foundation of this church as a WWI memorial may give it significance that other local congregations lack.  Smerdis of Tlön 13:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak delete To show it is notable, there should be reference to news stories about it, to books written about it, to noteworthy events that took place there, like some inportant meeting or innovation or doctrinal development, or someone famous who was a member. The only reference or link is to the church's own webstie.Edison 16:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep although the church itself gets few Ghits, some of them do establish notability, such as, , . The Center for Peace appears to be more currently notable than the Church (about 42 times as many Ghits), but the Church appears to be more historically notable.  GRBerry 13:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep* I'm the first creator of this page and new to Wikipedia, so there is my bias. In Vancouver there are 2 places where people go to remember the War dead, our local park and Canadian Memorial Church. There will be a Merchant Marine service on Sept 3, 2006 and the three Nov 11th services attract about 1,000 people annually (I didn't add those facts to the article, as that would be self promotion).  The Memorial Church was opened with senior political figures from Federal, Provincial and City governments (I thought it was of low interest now 75 years later, so didn't post those facts). In June 2006 22 different multi-faith events at the World Peace forum were held at the Centre for Peace. The Vancouver Historic Society included Canadian Memorial Church in their 2004 tour of historic churches.  As far as verification, the federal goverment's website confirms most of the key facts . Give us a chance to make this an appropriate Wikipedia entry please!  Canadianmemorial 19:38, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I do not dispute that Remembrance Day services occur at the Centre and do not intend to argue verifiability; however, there are more than two places in Vancouver where memorial services are held (not counting the numerous memorials held in various locations in all the municipalities of Greater Vancouver. In addition to the Cenotaph at Victory Square and the Centre, memorial services are held at the Japanese Memorial at Stanley Park, Grandview Park Cenotaph, the Chinese cenotaph (Keefer Square), Memorial Park South (41st and Prince Albert) and (if you count UBC as part of Vancouver), the memorial at War Memorial Gym. If there is a basis for which this facility is encyclopedic, then fine, but it shouldn't be considered encyclopedic on the incorrect statement that it's only one of two places where war memorials are held. Agent 86 20:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I meant no disrespect to the other places of memorial, and thank you for bringing them to mind. I was thinking of the places with large attendance.  The Japanese Memorial in Stanley Park for example would be an excellent subject for an article, even if it attracts only a small gathering, because of its uniqueness and social commentary.  I appreciate your comment that you do not argue verifiability, as that seems to be progress from your comment at the top of the page ("Much of the article is unverified...").Canadianmemorial 17:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep a good newspaper verification is at Canadianmemorial 19:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. While the facts in the article are verified, it is still non-notable. The article has to establish why it belongs in this encyclopedia, and I don't think it does that currently. --  Aguerriero  ( talk ) 16:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * this question of notable is very interesting. You have authored a number of articles on somewhat obscure musicians, but those are notable.  Another of the commentators above has authored articles on reality TV shows concerning housecleaning, and that is notable.  I stopped by the Centre for Peace today, and they were hosting a meeting of about 15 teenagers brought from Palestine along with about 15 teenagers brought from Israel, along with teens from the Vancouver area, to talk about "peace-ing it together" (see ), and I think what that place is doing is notable.  Perhaps to Americans, you don't realize the effect 60,000 war dead had on a very small nation of Canada in WWI, but it was a critical point in our journey as a nation, and school kids want to look such things up, and they want to know where this story is told in their community. In Canada we struggle with our mission as peacekeepers, their deaths, and the conflict between armed interventions and traditional peacekeeping - and here is a place dealing with those issues.  It is notable.Canadianmemorial 03:52, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. Just as you ought not take it personally if an article you've worked on is nominated, there is no need to put down the work of other contributors in order to defend your own. If you have problems with those other articles, nominate them for deletion. As for this article, Wikipedia is not a directory nor a local interest guide. It matters not if someone is American or Canadian or Greek or Chilean - they are entitled to question the notability of the subject matter of an article. If it matters, I'm Canadian, I'm from Vancouver, and I've seen the Centre countless times. I can tell you, this place does not meet whatever standards of notability might apply. I'm not saying the place is unimportant, but it's no more significant than any other parish church in Vancouver. Agent 86 08:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment, I respect that we can have different opinions; I wanted to express that the standard set for notability here seemed to be higher than applied to your own works, and that does not disparage your works. There are indeed aspects of the Church and Centre for Peace that is no different than most other churches in Vancouver (those aspects are properly not included in the article - and I would welcome editing help if there are elements remaining that offend this).  The fact that it was build by National (and American) subscription as a War Memorial is notable; the fact that it has an ongoing role as a place of remembrance for those who died in war that extends well beyond its church membership is notable; and the fact that it has a Centre that actively supports peace projects far beyond the bounds of the church membership is notable.Canadianmemorial 19:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Reads like vanity, and POV problems.  Also, as a note to Canadianmemorial, you do not need to vote twice as you did above; it has no effect on the overall result.  --ThatBajoranGuy 06:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.