Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cardinals–Royals rivalry


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   weak keep. Hopefully someone will take the time to actually use those sources to improve the article, or we likely end up back here again. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:25, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Cardinals–Royals rivalry
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log )

PROD, endorsed by one editor, contested by another. This article provides zero sources to claim the existence of a rivalry. It points primarily to 1985 World Series, which the teams competed in, but provides no evidence that this "I-70" Series has any lasting notability. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:00, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Copy & paste of what I wrote on the article's talk page:

I removed the deletion template. I had created this article a few months ago. The rivalry between the Cardinals and Royals exists. They share a state, have played a World Series (with a highly controversial call), and play each other in interleague play every year. In other words, they share in common the aspects of Mets-Yankees rivalry, Cubs-White Sox rivalry, and A's-Giants rivalry (Bay Bridge Series), all interleague rivalries with articles. There are definitely sources out there to prove it as well, unfortunately I haven't had the time to look for them. This rivalry was mentioned on both respective team pages, and also at interleague play, so I thought I'd get the ball rolling by creating the page. I'd hoped others would have jumped in and contributed by now but I see that is not the case! But I'd urge you to give other editors a chance to improve this article because I know it can be sourced. If they don't, then I may take it upon myself to do so, time permitting. Failing both of those, we can revisit the deletion. Thank you! TempDog123 (talk) 18:47, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm pressed for time right now, but here's a few links from reputable sources that I found from a quick Google search:, , , , .  Here's are some from more questionable sources, but that seem current on Missouri baseball: , TempDog123 (talk) 19:10, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:01, 23 March 2012

(UTC)


 * Weak keep It would be best if articles were developed on user pages until enough sources were identified to satify WP:GNG and placed in the article or the talk page. That being said, based on the sourced identified in this AfD, there's probably enough sources that at least refer to the interleague series as a "rivalry" to warrant an article.  I wouldn't mind this redirecting to a larger MLB interleague rivalry article, but with the World Series—albeit only one series—there's likely other tidbits floating around about the "rivalry".—Bagumba (talk) 21:00, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Bear in mind that in the other interleague rivlaries with articles - Mets/Yankees, Cubs/White Sox, A's/Giants - the official games between the two teams are likewise limited to interleague play and one World Series. In the case of certain other interleague rivalries that have articles (Citrus Series and Freeway Series) the respective teams have never even met in the World Series.  The Rays and Marlins did not even exist when the Cardinals and Royals met in the 1985 World Series! So, I do not see why this interleague rivalry is being singled out, except that the article is in its infancy and hasn't yet had the time to grow. TempDog123 (talk) 21:24, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Precisely, I think its an understandable reaction to "single out" this article based on the fact that this rivalry does not get as much press as the ones from bigger cities. Unfortunately, it's sources that determine notability, not whether anything "meaningful" really happened in the rivalry.—Bagumba (talk) 21:35, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm disappointed that a week after I've nominated this article for deletion, no changes have been made to the article in an attempt to keep it. Finding a few sources and putting them here is better than nothing, but it doesn't help us to determine just how much credence to give these sources. Are any of them WP:ROUTINE? Editorial comments that don't convey notability? If two respected editors say "weak" keep, that suggests it's still iffy at best. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:23, 30 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Weak keep - I suppose the various articles (although I don't think the first meets the independence requirements) calling this a rivalry are enough. Barely.  It would be much better if they actually described the rivalry in a manner that goes beyond the one World Series they played (lots of teams played one World Series against each other) and their interleague play record (which of course lots of team pairings have). As it is, it is hard to tell if the sources are describing an actual "rivalry" or just using the term for convenience.
 * The Met-Yankee, Cubs-White Sox and A's-Giants rivalries are hardly comparable. These teams share not just a state, but a city (or municipal area).  Each of those pairings involved some element of territorial disputes and/or shared stadium issues. In the Mets-Yankees the significance of the Mayor's Trophy Game is barely hinted at in the article - Steinbrenner used to treat that pretty much second only to the World Series, and without doing the research I am pretty sure at least one Yankee player got cut because of a costly error in that exhibition game.  And of course, the newspapers all treated the game with equal seriousness.  In the case of Giants-A's, I wouldn't be surprised if there were sources in the early 1910s describing a Giants-Athletics rivalry back then, given the proximity of the cities (and their tendency to look over each others shoulders) and the fact that the teams met in the World Series 3 times in less than 10 years, starting when the AL and NL themselves were virtually at war.
 * Besides that, having lived in the New York area all my life and been to St. Louis many times, I have yet to meet a Cardinal fan who feels better about a loss because the Royals lost too, or feel that the only thing that would make a day the Cardinals win better would be if the Royals hadn't won that day too (there may be some, but they aren't common). Whereas in the Met-Yankee and Cub-White Sox cases, such fans are very common. Really, I don't know any Cardinals fan who cares more about the Royals than about the Mariners, or any other particular team (I am sure they exist, but I doubt there are many).  Nor am I convinced that the I-70 World Series was any more indicative of a rivalry than the I-95 series a few years earlier. That said, given the sources, I am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. Rlendog (talk) 00:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.