Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carlo Masi


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.  bibliomaniac 1  5  19:18, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Carlo Masi

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This was rejected as a draft at WP:afc, the rejection has been vociferously argued against at a number of venues by User:AlejandroLeloirRey so I accepted the article and have bought it here for wider participation into whether it passes WP:GNG. I am neutral. Theroadislong (talk) 18:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Theroadislong (talk) 18:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Theroadislong (talk) 18:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Theroadislong (talk) 18:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:48, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:48, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
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 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:49, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:52, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:55, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Theatre-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:55, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep Hi, I was disappointed by the rejection because it was mostly motivated with bad sourcing. People who rejected my draft don't speak any Italian. Therefore, being almost all the sources in Italian, I wonder how can they judge them. Now, if there is something I need to change I will be happy to do so but the sources I have used are: a biography of Carlo Masi (Ruggero Freddi) written by Strega Prize winner Walter Siti, who is one of the most important Italian writers alive. This biography is a book published by Rizzoli Libri one of the most important Italian publishers. Apart from the book I used as a source Corriere della Sera, la Repubblica, La Stampa and Il Giornale which are the most important Italian national news papers, very reliable and authoritative (here you can find a list of the most the most popular daily Italian newspapers and you can check they are respectively in 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 10th position). Moreover I used Attitude (magazine), Times Higher Education, Gay Star News, Vanity Fair (magazines) (here it says it is reliable for wikipedia) and Vice (magazine)(here it says that its reliability is not consensus ) but mostly in the "media attention" part. I also used for some details about his porn career Xbiz (here it says it is reliable for wikipedia). Finally, I gave the link to the segment of the tv show where he asked his partner to marry him. Every single article I cite here is entirely on Carlo Masi (Ruggero Freddi) apart from the review of theater show he did, but even there his name is in bold and he is the main character. I didn't use anything reported to be an unreliable source but something might have slipped in. Please, give a look to other gay porn stars bios here on wikipedia and tell me if this one I wrote is not way better. Someone questioned about his notability, if after having read this biography you are not convinced about his notability I will feed you with more info. Remamber: Please do not bite the newcomers --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 19:51, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete a non-notable performer in pornographic films.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:55, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * He was an exclusive model for what was considered the most prestigious company on the market Colt Studio Group, not only that, he was the main actor of the company. Supporting this there are three major facts: first he is the only one ever named Colt Man Emeritus, second he is the one chosen as the cover man for the 40th year anniversary book of the company and third, even if he retired almost 10 years ago, in the model section of the company's web site he is still the most popular(here is the link: https://www.coltstudiogroup.com/models) . If that is not enough, how many gay porn actor do you think were famous enough to make tour across USA, Mexico and Europe in clubs and discos?(this is pretty easy to be checked). Look at this page, merchandise with his pictures is still sold: https://coltstudiostore.com/search?type=product&q=carlo+masi . He is on greeting cards, fridge magnets, tens of calendars (mostly covers), shower curtains, lap top sleeves, books, notebook and consider that most of his merchandise is sold out now as, once again, he retired years ago.
 * As a support for his notability (before 2017 so before he become known as a porn actor who become a professor) see that he was the first and only gay porn stars ever accepted in the circuit of the national Italian tv. He was the guest star of the most important Italian tv shows. For example this video is from his FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/RuggeroFreddi/videos/253527992083794/ . It is Chiambretti Night one of the most followed Italian tv show and he was the Guest Star (he was the special guest there a few times)https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/porn-actor-carlo-masi-attends-chiambretti-night-italian-tv-news-photo/98752998, and this was 2010 so way before he became a professor. Moreover he was on National Italian newspaper when he acted in a theater piece of Beckett: la Repubblica-article, Corriere della Sera- article, La Stampa-article. these are article entirely about him not a mere mention and the articles say that he was chosen because the director was looking for a porn star as a symbol of desire.--AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 21:24, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep: I see good sourcing here. I think the news coverage on the teacher/porn actor controversy gave Masi an opportunity to participate in Italy's national debate about sexuality. The Carlo Masi article on Italian Wikipedia is even longer and more comprehensively sourced. I know that the fact that a page exists on another language Wikipedia doesn't mean it's notable on English WP, but it does support the creator's claim that the subject has been well covered in Italian media. — Toughpigs (talk) 21:03, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete If we judged this subject as an entertainer WP:ENT they would fail. If we judged them as a academic WP:PROF they would fail. The fact that they were both a non-notable entertainer and a non-notable academic does not somehow make them notable, no matter the contrast of the two occupations. There's been plenty of other newscycle stories about pornographic actors going on to work in a more humble or unexpected occupation. The uniqueness makes for a fun news story and that's why they got coverage, but Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS, nor is it a celebrity gossip site. Sulfurboy (talk) 03:39, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fails both WP:Prof and WP:GNG. Xxanthippe (talk) 08:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC).
 * Delete. The sourcing...is not good. Out of the present 39 refs, around 15 are to Siti's book. While Siti is a great writer, this is not a straight biography; it would be described as a novelisation of someones life. An online review google translates as "After all, “ what is a true story? Does the truth-novel exist? Truth has to do with science and jurisprudence, not with literature or with life ”. Which means that the question is irrelevant: that the two stories are more or less truthful, more or less exact in recalling the unfolding of the facts, the narration is authentic, thanks to that narrative voice that allows you to trace the origin of the speech in reality outside the text, without being bound to it. It is not reality that interests the writer..." It is literature rather than biography, seems to be listed as a novel at Amazon and so not WP:RS, especially for a BLP. IMDB appears twice, and the subjects listing at the Adult Films Database (which seems to be as reliable a source as IMDB) is used as well. So half the references are to non reliable sources. Curdle (talk) 09:56, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Siti explains in the last chapter of the book that all the facts described in the book have all actually happened. For the other "unreliable sources" it is important to see the context in which they are used, for example if they are used to prove specific fact like he was on a cover than anything that actually shows that cover will do.--AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 10:18, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Historical novels often have a similar note. The author himself describes the book as a novel! again, from that review "since, as the author points out in the concluding note, “it is easy to say 'true story' : if the story is told in a novel, it cannot be completely true " It doesn't mean they are WP:RS. And sources "to prove he was on the cover" need to be more than a link to the cover itself (primary source), secondary sources are what is needed to provide notability. Curdle (talk) 11:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * “it is easy to say 'true story' : if the story is told in a novel, it cannot be completely true " this is a general statement true for every book. AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 11:10, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep, meets GNG even if sourcing is in Italian. Sources for porn performers is notoriously hard to find but hopefully more will be found, including video interviews. Gleeanon409 (talk) 10:03, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - # User:AlejandroLeloirRey, created this page in mainspace, which was moved to draft space by first reviewer with the reason that it's improperly sourced. # Then Second reviewer rejected the draft submission it again for the same reason. # Third time I rejected it saying subject is not notable (Obviously, even here many agree with me, that sources are not reliable+not much sign of notability as per policies and much more). by the time the creator has gone to several pages including talk pages of all the reviewers, teahouse, afc help page and asked further questions about it. Not just that as this was needed but they also raised questions on other such pornbios on the same lines on which their draft was rejected. This utter desperateness shows strong signs of COI/self promotion and I won't vote to keep it. They have made almost 94 edits on the draft and all of their other edits around 300 are on other pages to pursue others to accept this draft which makes me more negative. Additionally personal attacks on my talkpage and some other pages are not acceptable at all.   QueerEcofeminist "cite! even if you fight"!!! [they/them/their] 07:15, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * is this a personal attack WP:PA ? are we discussing me or the bio? If I did something wrong you can suspend me or block me but this has nothing to do with carlo's bio. This is not a voting process, only arguments count so what is the point of this comment?. If you don't feel that carlo's bio should stay I am fine with it, but don't personally attack me, please.--AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 08:50, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak delete – I have been on the fence about this one. There are a lot of sources that look very reliable on the face of it, but even so I don't think notability is met. First, the person is clearly not notable as a performer (WP:NACTOR), second, he is clearly not notable as an academic (WP:NPROF). So any notability will have to stem from WP:ANYBIO coverage in secondary sources, and there, I think WP:BLP1E applies – there were a flurry of newspaper reports surrounding one event as discussed in the section "Media attention", but nothing more sustained.  As for the book, that clearly can't be used to verify any information given the fact that it is a fictionalised account. Even so, the fact that the person is the subject of (part of) a book is probably the strongest claim to notability – but I do not believe that that on its own makes him meet WP:GNG. --bonadea contributions talk 17:03, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep (but trim) per WP:BASIC based on sustained independent coverage. During Masi's porn career, he received coverage: XBIZ 2008 and AVN 2009. In 2011, he was included in the book, Gay Porn Heroes: 100 Most Famous Porn Stars by J. C. Adams. When Masi transitioned into theater, he received coverage: la Repubblica 2010. Masi received the most coverage with his transition to academia: Vanity Fair 2017 and Pink News 2018. His 2018 civil union/marriage was covered by the press: Gay Star News, On Top Magazine, Pink News, Queerty. In 2020, he is a subject of a book by  . TJMSmith (talk) 21:02, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. As stated above, there are reliable sources and sustained coverage beyond WP:BLP1E. Passes WP:GNG. --MarioGom (talk) 09:46, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. We don't judge why someone is notable, so long as they pass WP:GNG because of WP:SIGCOV. In this case, there is significant, ongoing coverage, in part because of the incongruity of a "porn star" becoming a math professor. WP:ODD and April Fool's Day WP:DYK are filled with such articles. As an adult actor, he was a big star in dozens of films, from a major adult film studio, and won top awards in his field (pardon the puns). As an academic, he would not normally be notable, but many academics become famous for controversy rather than publishing. His marriage/civil union was widely reported in almost every gay publication and web site. Bearian (talk) 02:23, 21 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.