Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carmel, Trecynon


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:34, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Carmel, Trecynon

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Notability and verifiability issues. The only source is a local historical society. In searching, I found a similarly named church (but certainly different from this one) that Thomas Price (Baptist minister) was affiliated with but nothing else about this one. User:力百 (alt of power~enwiki, π,  ν ) 19:16, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. User:力百 (alt of power~enwiki,  π,  ν ) 19:16, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 20:22, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 20:22, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wales-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 20:22, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak delete keep or merge: I have updated the Coflein link. This is a highly reliable source which verifies some of the content. However, it does not appear to indicate sufficient notability. The inclusion in Category:Grade II listed churches in Rhondda Cynon Taf appears to be a mistake, possibly from confusion with the nearby Carmel (Bryn Sion) Chapel. It would be a pity to lose this content: I suggest merging into a new article on all the churches and chapels in Aberdare and/or the Cynon Valley. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:07, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Elfed Davies, a local historian, has written two books on the chapel: Carmel Trecynon 1799-1996 (2002) and Addendum to the Story of Carmel Trecynon (2005, possibly a leaflet). These might be self-published, but they would be citable if the author is an established expert on the topic. Even if they are not citable, they might uncover more reliable sources and their existence suggests that there is more to be said about this chapel. Not withstanding WP:ITSOLD, the chapel was built in 1829 and the Listed building article says "Most buildings built between 1700 and 1840 are listed". If it were still standing it would probably be listed, we usually accept listed buildings as notable, and it being demolished is not an issue (WP:DEFUNCT). Changing to Weak keep or merge. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:01, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I must disagree with your argument. As far as I can tell, the building is not standing, and the UK register of historic places does not have any coverage of it at all.  You link to a historic building listed in 1991, but the article says the building was demolished in 1989; I must assume that is a different place with a similar name.  If the facts were different, perhaps it would be notable.  Your argument seems to suggest that every building from the 1700s is automatically notable because it would be historic if it were still standing. User:力百 (alt of power~enwiki,  π,  ν ) 18:24, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * By 'the UK register of historic places' are you referring to the National Heritage List for England? This building is in Wales. The equivalent list for Wales appears to be the National Monuments Record of Wales. This is documented by the Coflein database, which includes this building, see my link above. I thought I had made it clear that my link for the chapel listed in 1991 was another chapel with which this might be confused – I am trying to clarify the situation, not presenting a case for a specific decision. Verbcatcher (talk) 19:48, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep per sources above and also here is a newspaper article about its reopening following refurbishment.Pontificalibus 15:25, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete -- There are loads of listed buildings; and we cannot have an article for every one. I am not suggesting that what the article says is not true, and the newspaper article no doubt supports it. However, this was merely a NN local church, and a defunct one at that.  Local churches need something noteworthy about them before they deserve an article.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:15, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * listed buildings are usually included as per WP:GEOLAND without the above equivocation Atlantic306 (talk) 01:36, 13 November 2021 (UTC)


 * The article has been expanded, please re-assess it. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:20, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep as registered as a listed building in the Welsh register so passes WP:GEOLAND and has newspaper coverage as identified in this discussion as well as sources from a historian, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 01:36, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. Clearly notable as a religious institution and as a building, even though it has now been demolished. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:01, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.