Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carmen Lozano Dumler


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:05, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Carmen Lozano Dumler

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Fails WP:SOLDIER ("one of the first Puerto Rican women to become a United States Army officer" isn't notable} and lacks SIGCOV in multiple RS to satisfy WP:GNG. Most of the references are dead links with bare URLS, the only substantive story in RS is the Chicago Sun-Times, which appears to have been copied and mirrored Mztourist (talk) 08:20, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Mztourist (talk) 08:22, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Puerto Rico-related deletion discussions. Mztourist (talk) 08:23, 3 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - Why am I not surprised about this nomination which is based on an essay and not on an actual Wikipedia policy? This is supposedly an encyclopedia where editors are to share their knowledge about others with the world regardless of their color, race or place of origin. Being the "first" in my book is notable and letting the rest of the world know is sharing ones knowledge which is what Wikipedia is all about regardless of what an essay may state. Everybody here knows that some sources which were placed on articles written years ago may no  longer exist and that it is a question of doing some research and citing the newly found sources. According to Marilla Cushman of the Women in Military Service for America Memorial Foundation:

“She is certainly a pioneer for Puerto Rican women, one of the first 13 to be commissioned into the Army Nurse Corps. Carmen and her 12 cohorts led the way for Puerto Rican women in the Army Nurse Corps. Tony the Marine (talk) 13:31, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Nothing notable about her career. She could be a name in a list of people from the island that did something in the war/army. Also rather America-centric, not much notability to an international audience. Oaktree b (talk) 16:32, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete The key issue is passing GNG, and she clearly does not.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:34, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. TJMSmith (talk) 18:58, 3 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. "One of the first" is not good enough, and it shows in the weak sourcing. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:00, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep I have fixed the Chicago Sun-Times link and added information from a link to the US Department of Veterans Affairs that specifically honors her and provides fact-checked information about her biography and reasons why she was distinctly important to the military during WWII. Per WP:SOLDIER, there does appear to be "enough information in reliable sources to include details about [her] birth, personal life, education and military career," and the notice she has earned from the US military and independent, reliable secondary sources supports her notability. Beccaynr (talk) 21:25, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment I also added a US DOD source that recognizes "Second Lieutenant Carmen Lozano Dumler was one of the first Puerto Rican women to become a US Army officer," which shows notice (and notability) from the US military for this fact. Beccaynr (talk) 21:35, 4 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep Per Beccaynr. Seems well sourced now. Pladica (talk) 01:21, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep Plenty of coverage, meets wikipedia notability. Antonio The Notable Dork Martin (si?) 22:28, 7 February, 2021 (UTC)
 * (OT) Did you see User talk:AntonioMartin? —[ Alan M 1  (talk) ]— 03:51, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi Alan..yeah but I don't understand how to use that...personally I think timing the comments is rather silly but I do it because everyone else does. I figured I am 8 hours behind the British, and UTC is based on the Greenwich line...I mean it is, right?? Can you show me an example of how to do the five tildes and etc.? Much obliged! God bless you! Antonio Not in Greenwich Martin (orale!) 07:40, 8 February, 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - There are a lot of soldiers in the history of the U.S. military but somehow Carmen Lozano Dumler is one of those featured in material by the Department of Defense when showcasing hispanics in the military so there's no doubt she's notable. I added the source for this statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Eloquent Peasant  (talk • contribs) 01:16, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * That source inaccurately states that "Second Lieutenant Carmen Maria Lozano Dumler, becomes the first Puerto Rican woman to become a United States Army officer." She wasn't the first, she was one of the first. If they can't get that right its not reliable. Mztourist (talk) 03:00, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Per the Chicago Sun-Times, ""The Army did not recruit women on the island until 1944," said retired Lt. Col. Marilla Cushman, a spokeswoman for the [Women in Military Service for America Memorial Foundation]. "Mrs. Dumler was the first on the island to be sworn in."" My read on this is that even as the exact first, she is also 'one of the first' due to getting sworn in with a small group. Beccaynr (talk) 03:10, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It says "she was the first sworn in" it doesn't make it clear if it was a matter of minutes or months until the second was sworn in. There is no guideline or policy that says that being first is notable. Mztourist (talk) 03:18, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment The sources repeatedly note this accomplishment (in addition to other aspects of her service), which objectively makes it notable, at minimum per WP:BASIC, and also per the WP:SOLDIER essay due to her important service in WW2 as well as her prominent role in military celebrations of diversity since then. Beccaynr (talk) 03:45, 9 February 2021 (UTC) And the Chicago Sun-Times says, "She was the first sworn in out of a group of 13 trailblazing nurses in Puerto Rico recruited to care for the growing number of Puerto Rican soldiers at military hospitals in San Juan and the Caribbean, according to the Women in Military Service for America Memorial Foundation," which sounds like it was a group event. Beccaynr (talk) 03:58, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * What is "this accomplishment"? What makes her any more notable than any of the other 12 female Puerto Rican officers? On WP notability isn't based on what someone does its based on the coverage of what they did, that is why GNG requires SIGCOV in multiple RS and the sources provided just don't meet that standard. Mztourist (talk) 05:08, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment WP:BASIC states, "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability," and per WP:HEY, citations have been clarified, sources added, and the secondary commentary from multiple independent and reliable sources seems clear. And it is the coverage in the sources that objectively distinguishes Lozano Dumler as specifically notable per Wikipedia policy. I don't think we need to debate why the military has chosen to elevate her in its extensive efforts to celebrate diversity, because multiple independent and reliable sources demonstrate that it has. Beccaynr (talk) 05:37, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I know what BASIC and HEY state. You were arguing that her "accomplishment" made her notable then you changed tack and argue that multiple sources are there. In my view the sources still don't amount to SIGCOV in multiple RS as shown by the factual confusion of the example you first gave. Mztourist (talk) 06:19, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment I have tried to address your concern about RS by discussing, with sources, how someone can be both the first sworn in while also being one of the first within a group. I don't think there is confusion about this that undermines the reliability of any of the sources. I also have been trying to address what seems like subjective questions of notability by stating that I think we are guided by the multiple independent and reliable sources to objectively make that assessment. It is changing tack to my understanding of Wikipedia policy, as noted in the essay " Subjective importance," "Notability is about having published, non-trivial information (i.e., more than a mere mention) in multiple sources independent of the subject, and the article itself not being the first place to provide the information," which seems to be met in multiple independent RS that discuss Lozano Dumler as the first or one of the first Puerto Rican women to become a U.S. Army officer, and as one of the first Puerto Rican nurses in the Army, and as an interpreter and bilingual support, which was recognized by multiple independent RS as important to the care of injured troops. In addition, the U.S. military has diversity initiatives that feature Lozano Dumler, which further verifies her past notability and contributes to additional notability for serving as a modern inspiration. Beccaynr (talk) 14:14, 9 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. It's true that there are some mentions of her being "one of the first..." but from mere presentation of this fact it isn't clear that it makes the subject of the article notable. The weight is on the fact that at some point Puerto Rican women started becoming officers but that isn't inherited by each individual member of the first class of officers. — Alalch Emis (talk) 07:49, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep - I was looking at this earlier but held off commenting as wasn't sure. Leaning keep. I can see and understand the other points of view, but I think it's a well written article, and well sourced. It demonstrates notability for the most part.-- HistoricalAccountings (talk) 21:03, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep -- "...first Puerto Rican women to become a United States Army officer." Seems important to me.
 * Except she was only "one of the first" and its importance depends on her having SIGCOV in multiple RS which doesn't exist. Mztourist (talk) 04:02, 13 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment I also think there is notability per WP:ANYBIO, due to the honors Lozano Dumler has received from the military that have been added to the article, including being featured in multiple Hispanic Heritage Month publications. A subjective argument that "one of the first" is not notable seems like a strawperson, because this is not the only source of her notability; multiple independent and reliable sources have taken notice of her career, and she has been repeatedly honored for her service, not simply being "one of the first." Beccaynr (talk) 03:04, 14 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.