Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carmine Guida


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   No consensus. Despite a rambling AfD that is very unclear, there appears to be little that passes WP:MUSIC here. However, the article should be given time to expand.Black Kite 22:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Carmine Guida

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Fails notability requirements for musicians. Can't find independent sources. The albums listed are all on extremely minor labels, most being marketed through CDbaby (a specialist site for unsigned musicians). An award from the Belly Dancing society of New Jersey doesn't convey much in the way of notability. &mdash;Kww(talk) 03:37, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete Per nom. I tagged this for numerous issues, including notability. 99.149.84.135 (talk) 03:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep This is a new page, and apparently has been 'attacked' by its subject - who did not create it. Guida has apparently had music used on national television in the USA, and is well known certainly in the NYC area. I'll try and add some more independant sources but I'm kind of strapped for time. Luminifer (talk) 05:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, CDBaby is not a site for unsigned musicians - even people as notable as 24-7 Spyz and Bumblefoot have their CDs on there - and other places as well. Having your CD on CDBaby doesn't really mean anything.. Luminifer (talk) 17:07, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * They do seem to have loosened their policies a bit about signed artists. I went looking for their old declaration on the topic, and it seems to have disappeared. Yes, having CDBaby as a part of your distribution doesn't make you non-notable, but having CDBaby as the only distribution channel for a CD goes a long way towards demonstrating non-notability.&mdash;Kww(talk) 19:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I could see saying that - but many of his releases are also available on amazon (and presumably other places). I also did a search on google for 'instructional doumbek video', and Carmine Guida is actually the very first result - I don't know if you think that says something, but it's worth noting at least. Luminifer (talk) 20:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment Unfortunately it is kinda difficult to find good sources which discuss the person. Here are some: - source of unknown authority; iShimmy - Guida is among the creators/staff of the website;... - Altenmann >t 21:12, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, that's an interesting piece either way - thanks! Luminifer (talk) 21:15, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment - is it looking a little more notable? I should point out that he's not only notable for his albums, but more for his instructions and his music being used on television, as well as his performances... Luminifer (talk) 20:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment - there are two notable sources if you click the "news" link at the top of here, but I can't seem to get at them. Particularly this:
 * Elgin's Martini Room to host drum-playing, belly dance party Belly up...
 * $2.95 - Courier News - NewsBank - Jan 1, 2007
 * King, who teaches belly dancing on Tuesdays at The Centre of Elgin, will
 * accompanied at the workshop by Carmine Guida, a nationally recognized Middle ...
 * Luminifer (talk) 20:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NW ( Talk ) 20:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
 * Comment Still don't see any solid reliable support here. CDBaby and Amazon comprise most of the references, and those aren't reliable sources for notability or significance; they're not really valid sources at all. The other refs appear awfully slim, and are either blogs or personal websites--without a single article devoted primarily to the subject in a major publication, it's hard to see how a claim can be made for notability. 99.149.84.135 (talk) 01:23, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What would be a valid source for album release information, in your opinion, if vendors are not? I believe they're certainly more reliable than any guide has proven to be, as they are one step closer to the material. (This has nothing to do with the delete nom, it's just a confusing issue, which I brought up on the talk page but no one is addressing) Luminifer (talk) 03:34, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The guidelines are at WP:MUSIC. 99.149.84.135 (talk) 03:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd like to point out that WP:MUSIC states This page provides a guideline of how the concept of notability applies to topics related to music, including artists and bands, albums, and songs. This doesn't wholly apply in this case, as Guida is more famous as an instructor and authority on middle eastern music and instruments (and thus his coming up in papers by ethnomusicologists - did you miss that one when you said "only blogs or personal websites"? it's easy to do as the cdbaby links do overpower things). As an aside, I actually disagree with allmusic being a good source - as many people do - but WP:MUSIC offers no real alternatives. Luminifer (talk) 04:26, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Amazon is a fine source for existence and release dates, but doesn't do much to validate notability.&mdash;Kww(talk) 04:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This seems quite circular, and I realize there's little point in my repeating this, but the subject's notability has not been established by reliable sources. The reference to the ethnomusicologist is a cite of a master's thesis. WP:MUSIC is indeed helpful, and relevant. Does not yet meet criteria. 99.149.84.135 (talk) 04:42, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As I stated, I don't believe WP:MUSIC solely applies here, as he is more known as a teacher and authority than a maker of musical recordings - which WP:MUSIC very specifically says is who/what it applies to. I would suggest Notability (people) is a better guide to follow for this, which states A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.. Luminifer (talk) 05:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's fine; the essential issue is the same. He doesn't yet appear to meet criteria under the guidelines you bold-faced, nor under those outlined at Notability (people), WP:ACADEMICS, or WP:CREATIVE. The same expectations re: sources applies, no matter which area of achievement is chosen. 99.149.84.135 (talk) 06:35, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I see that there are quite a few pieces of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. How is that not the case? Luminifer (talk) 17:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It is not unreasonable to question the reliability of the secondary sources: the article's second reference, to the Post Gazette article, is about the opening of a new coffee house, and it's hard to find mention of the subject in the article; As noted earlier, Ederer's article is a thesis paper; NJ Belly Dancing Org. is probably not a reliable source; similarly, one questions a very brief mention in 'I Shimmy' belly dancing magazine, as well as bellydancertrainer.com as a reliable source. In brief, most of the mentions are passing, or in sources that are not established journalistic entities. Such mention, coupled with the copious use of CDBaby and Amazon links, prove only that the subject is a working musician and teacher, not necessarily a significant or notable one--he may well be, but that's not been established. As footnote 4 to criteria for notability states: The barometer of notability is whether people independent of the subject itself have actually considered the subject notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works that focus upon it. There is only one reference that is an article about the subject alone, and that comes from bellydancertrainer.com; my question to editors and the administrator who eventually decides the issue is whether these sources taken together constitute notability. If so, I have long misunderstood guidelines and requirements for inclusion, and I will stand corrected. 99.149.84.135 (talk) 18:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I've interpreted it, the guidelines for inclusion are intentionally vague and mention (several times) reaching concensus on notability, rather than a cold hard set of rules to follow. Luminifer (talk) 18:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * He has been covered in print as well, but I don't actually peruse print material. I will see what I can find. Luminifer (talk) 18:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * None of these sources are providing a direct and detailed examination of Carmine Guida, which is what is required by WP:RS. They are only passing mentions.&mdash;Kww(talk) 19:42, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The article under the bellydancetrainer.com is actually all about him (and it's not the only one) - it's even called "Catching up with Carmine Guida" - and it turns out to be similar material to a printed magazine sourced, which I have also now referenced. There are also reviews of CDs on which he appears. Luminifer (talk) 00:56, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As an aside, can you quote for me where from WP:RS it states what you say - that it need to provide a "direct and detailed examination" of the subject? There have got to be tons of notable wikipedia article already in existance that fail that criterion - having a detail study about them. Luminifer (talk) 00:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's been changed to "must directly support". I'll dig through and find out when and why (and probably change it back).&mdash;Kww(talk) 01:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Just lost track of my acronyms: WP:N.&mdash;Kww(talk) 01:17, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, you left out the key phrase at the end there. "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material. Many of these sources do exactly that. Luminifer (talk) 02:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I've added a few more print references, one discussing him and one reviewing CD he was on, specifically praising the drum solos he performed on there. Luminifer (talk) 04:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * keep. Not Ringo Starr, but reasonably notable in his area of expertise. - Altenmann >t 15:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Aussie Ausborn (talk) 22:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep as per discussion - notability is established Laurelfan (talk) 23:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: user's first edit. Laurelfan, please know that unfortunately your vote will not be counted. Mukadderat (talk) 23:12, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - the current article shows reasonable notability. Mukadderat (talk) 23:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.