Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cascadia high-speed rail (proposition)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   merge to Pacific Northwest Corridor. merge to Pacific Northwest Corridor; there is not yet sufficiently advanced planning for an article. DGG (talk) 22:33, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Cascadia high-speed rail (proposition)

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At the moment this is still just a proposal - the only article about it says " The Eugene to Vancouver, B.C., corridor is one of 11 corridors designated for possible high-speed rail development. There is much to be done regionally before LaHood assigns priority funding for the engineering and development of the Cascadia high-speed rail line." Thus it lacks notability and, as the saying goes, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. dougweller (talk) 18:37, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Merge with Pacific Northwest Corridor - The rail line has not been built, but the proposal has been discussed for years, has been documented and has sources, so the proposal to build the rail is notable.Rlendog (talk) 18:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Changed to merge, as this information should be incorporated with Pacific Northwest Corridor. Much of the information could be deleted in the merge, but the appropriate, sourced information should be retained. Rlendog (talk) 15:27, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - one source is an opinion piece, the other from what appears to be some sort of advocacy website, neither is particularly a reliable source, thus fails WP:NOTE until there are more sources. Aboutmovies (talk) 19:43, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Are you suggesting that the sources that happen to be in an article started a few hours ago are the only ones available (which is the criteria for notability)? A quick Google search turned up references to Cascadia hig-speed rail proposals and activity in published books , an apparent US government document , a transportation study by an Oregon city , another opinion piece, this time from the Seattle Times , a resolution from another Oregon city , a Canadian opinion piece  and other sources of varying reliability.Rlendog (talk) 21:07, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I am not suggesting that those are the only sources available, but those are the only ones provided. Thus "until there are more sources" the article in its current state fails notability. If there are more sources, as is likely, feel free to add those that are reliable, third party sources to establish notability. But primary sources (e.g. city resolutions, government documents) and opinion pieces have limited weight towards establishing notability. Aboutmovies (talk) 21:30, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Notability attaches to the topic, not the article. Per WP:FAILN, "Although articles should demonstrate the notability of their topics, and articles on topics that do not meet this criterion are generally deleted, it is important to not just consider whether notability is established by the article, but whether it readily could be."  Primary sources and opinion pieces have limited weight towards establishing notability, but the topic is also covered in published books and magazines, of which I just provided two links that were readlity available from a Google search. Rlendog (talk) 21:39, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the book (don't see a mag that isn't an opinion piece) is not about the rail line, thus it is not exclusive coverage. Its not trivial either, its somewhat substantial (or significant as NOTE uses), but the amount of coverage is limited. Thus multiple sources are needed. As to WP:FAILN, keep reading it. "Merely asserting that such sources exist is seldom persuasive, especially as time passes and actual proof does not surface." One source, the book, exists and is usable. Throw a couple more up and you are there. It's not like I haven't heard of this (not for a decade or so now), I just question whether it meets the notability guidelines. As of now, its borderline. Aboutmovies (talk) 22:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I added references from a couple of books. Not sure it was necessary, since I didn't merely assert that additional sources exist, but provided links to some.  But given that this is a new article by a new editor who may not know better yet, it was worth just incorporating a couple of the references into the article on his/her behalf. Rlendog (talk) 02:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no requirement that sources must be exclusively about a topic to establish notability, just that they be non-trivial like a "passing mention" or a "directory listing". The coverage of this topic is far beyond the scope of either. --Oakshade (talk) 03:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know, that's why the discussion about exclusive coverage was followed by "THUS". But, exclusive in a large book would usually do it alone, as indicated by footnote one at WP:NOTE. That is to say, if it is not exclusive if a large book (or other well recognized media), then you need multiple of the significant coverage, which is all covered at WP:NOTE, see "General notability guideline" and the first part of that. Aboutmovies (talk) 03:26, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no "large book" clause anywhere in WP:NOTE. Coverage demonstrating notability could be an article or even non-trivial coverage within an article about a different topic.  It does not have to be a "large book".--Oakshade (talk) 05:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And no one said there was. Please read what I have said (word such as then have specific meanings). If there is coverage in a large book (see the footnote in NOTE where the number of pages of a book on IBM is detailed), then you don't need to go further. But if there is not that type of coverage, then you need multiple sources that detail the topic in less depth/exclusivity than a book all about IBM would afford to the notability to IBM. Got it. That is, there is no book requirement, there is no exclusivity requirement. BUT if an EXCLUSIVE book did exist about a topic, then you do not need anything else to demonstrate notability. Much like a single, trivial source can actually be enough for notability in situations where you have the what I like to call the "automatic inclusion criteria" such as a Senator, where a single line in a newspaper article saying someone was a Senator is enough for notability, as it establishes one of the specific inclusion criteria of BIO. But no, there is no large book requirement, and nobody said there was. Aboutmovies (talk) 06:12, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (indent for readability) You're completely missing the point. The coverage of this topic is independent, significant and non-trivial. All of your talk about a "large book" is irrelevant. --Oakshade (talk) 06:42, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not missing the point (you are the one who wants to keep mis-reading about "large books"). The point about the books is that the coverage in either of the books (the Al Sayyad has little more than a page of coverage and the other one paragraph) listed above ALONE (all by itself, is in if it were the only source given) is not enough to confer notability. That's it, period, end of story as to the exclusive coverage in a large book argument. Period. End of story on large book. Period. If there are a handful of other sources that also provide significant coverage that are independent and meet RS, then the coverage in the books listed above and those additional sources taken in the aggregate are enough for notability. But the other sources given are either primary sources (no notability conferred) or opinion pieces, which do little for notability. In fact the Seattle opinion piece does not discuss this topic at all, it discusses in one whole sentence the expansion of existing Amtrak/rail service (nothing about a high speed rail from Eugene to BC) and in another one whole sentence discusses high speed rail, but it is ambiguous as to if they mean between Seattle burbs or a BC to Eugene system (taken in context of improving Seattle transit I think they mean Renton to Lynnwood type of service). As to the other opinion piece, at most three whole sentences could be considered coverage of this proposal. Aboutmovies (talk) 07:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - Is a notable proposal as indicated in the sources provided by Rlendog. Even an opinion piece, provided it is secondary and independent of the topic, is considered a reliable source to demonstrate notability.  There is no requirement that such sources be unbiased. --Oakshade (talk) 22:41, 10 March 2009 (UTC) Changed to Redirect to Pacific Northwest Corridor as suggested by Matjamoe below.  That seems more appropriate for now.--Oakshade (talk) 15:06, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete or completely rewrite The concept may be notable, but the information given in the article is scarcely encyclopedic. (a) We are told that a proposal exists, but almost nothing about the circumstances of the proposal, such as who has made the proposal, or by whom it is being considered. (b) We are told that "American citizens think that ...", but not what American citizens, or how many of them, or how it has been ascertained what they think, or what other opinions other American citizens hold. (c) We are told "Proponents of the Cascadia high-speed rail also believe ..." but not what opponents think. (d) We are given a long quote exhorting us to "Imagine boarding a high-speed rail train in downtown Portland [etc etc]": the quoted passage is designed to encourage us to have a particular feeling about the proposal, to take a particular view of it, not to provide us with information about it. All in all the article lacks factual information, lacks objectivity, lacks evidence, and attempts to support a particular point of view. It is more like an advertisement than an encyclopedia article. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:41, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Pacific Northwest Corridor, as that is the official federal name for the designated corridor. If this project happens, it will be because the feds fund it. -Matjamoe (talk) 14:48, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.