Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cattleman Restaurant


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. I've seen enough to convince me this should be kept...it is at the least borderline notable, and that's good enough for me. Self-close. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 16:22, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Cattleman Restaurant

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This article appears to fail WP:CORP. I notice there are two sources from The New York Times in the article but I can't seem to access the content. I did a Google search for additional sources but came up pretty dry. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 06:00, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It should be pretty obvious that a restaurant that closed in 1989 is unlikely to have many usable Google hits. That said, I could find nothing substantial in LexisNexis (which has coverage back to 1980), and the first reference sounds like it's more about the owner than the restaurant. That leaves us with only one source, which isn't enough to pass CORP. Weak delete, though I'm willing to change my !vote if new sources are found or if I guessed wrong about the first reference. T. Canens (talk) 06:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, seeing the wisdom in that I did a search via my university's EBSCOhost and came up with nothing. I also searched The New York Times here and got what may be a couple more sources from the 1970s, but unfortunately the full text is apparently unavailable (or at least I can't get to it).  Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 07:05, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I think my university has a NYT subscription (I had one in undergrad, even though we didn't have JSTOR), so I'll check those for you later today when I'm on campus, if I remember. I have some friends in Stillwater; is this perhaps why they speak ill of Norman?  Nyttend (talk) 13:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Just the general fact they live in Stillwater probably is enough to explain the fact that they speak ill of Norman...it's like Lawrence and Manhattan in Kansas. =P Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 17:35, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * So there are other problems with Norman besides its lack of NYT coverage? :-)  I grew up not far from Ohio State, and they've kidded me about being the real OSU.  Nyttend (talk) 20:00, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 17:08, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 17:08, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 17:08, 20 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 13:43, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

 
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —Tom Morris (talk) 20:19, 3 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. Utterly non-notable.  I think I ate here once in the 1980s, but even that is not enough to confer notability. Qworty (talk) 22:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: I ate there a couple of times too. Good steak, and the owner or manager gave me a complimentary glass of creme de menthe at the end, which was a nice touch. So I'd like it to turn out to be notable, if that counts for anything.... Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:38, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It was definitely a celebrated restaurant in its time ("a riotously successful steakhouse", "one of the best dining emporiums in New York","one of the nation’s most successful restaurants" (with its own cookbook published) ). The amount of sourcing available free online is not great, but what you can see does suggest notability. Anyone have access to the New Yorker archives?--Milowent • hasspoken  12:57, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Those are good finds and will add to a "reception" section. I have the New Yorker DVD archive, there is one incidental mention from 1974 not worth adding. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 17:22, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Darn. I can see they advertised a lot in the New Yorker too.  Some of the references to the restaurant out there seem to assume familiarity by public, like a silly 1960 news story where a singer was arrested for throwing a steak at Ellman at the restaurant..  I wonder if a bio could be written on Larry Ellman, he had his paws in a lot of stuff.--Milowent • hasspoken  19:04, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * A GoogleBooks search shows adds in New York Magazine but not sure about New Yorker. Don't have access to New York Magazine archives other than GB. The best description of the restaurant is the link you found for the cookbook but it's not an independent source since it's a commercial book selling site. But maybe it could be used? Not sure. Larry Ellman seems notable enough research might turn up an interesting story. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 19:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep They ran for 30 years, and were making millions of dollars a year for much of that time. Sources found by Milowent prove its notable.  I did some checking on my Highbeam account, and added in sources about the successful musical that started there.   D r e a m Focus  16:12, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep I think there are enough sources to justify a keep now. The restaurant is also mentioned incidentally in a number of novels, trawling through Google Books, but hard to say if those novels are important enough to be mentioned in the article. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 16:59, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep With 9 inline citations, including The New York Times and New York Magazine, and the link to the musical Pump Boys and Dinettes, this restaurant was well known and very popular, and entirely notable. An easy keeper! --DThomsen8 (talk) 01:38, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep As above; aside from the 9 cites in major sources and specifically a book about notable NYC restaurants, the fact it inspired a highly successful musical tips it over, IMHO. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:24, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.