Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Celene (Greyhawk)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was keep. W.marsh 14:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Celene (Greyhawk)

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Contested prod. Fails WP:FICT, has no reliable sources to demonstrate notability, only ghits on fansites. Gavin Collins 09:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Game-related deletions.   --Gavin Collins 09:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Within the canon of Greyhawk, this is a notable kingdom. Primary sources are provided, and while the addition of secondary sources would help improve the article, I don't believe that the article's notability is contested within the larger framework of Greyhawk, which is clearly notable itself. -Harmil 13:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Commment what about real-world notability outside of the Greyhawk canon? Where is the evidence for that? --Gavin Collins 14:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * As I said, I think that the establishment of notability for Greyhawk has already been accomplished indisputably. This article is arguably too small a satellite, though I think that could be argued either way. So, you could certainly make the case that it's not notable enough on its own and should be merged, but I don't agree that deleting material which is notable within its genre is reasonable. I know you don't agree with that, but there it is. I'll have to let other editors weigh in to resolve. -Harmil 14:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment That is just your opinion, which is not supported by any evidence; there are no reliable secondary sources to demonstrate the notability of Greyhawk, only a long list of primary sources orginating from the publishers. Celene has no real-world notability at all; as far as I know, its just a fictional location that is named on a map of gaming instructions. The primary sources do not indicate that this ficitonal location has any notability per se. -Gavin Collins 09:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that's not my opinion. That's fact as supported by the sources in the article. We rely on primary sources to tell us about the notability of a subject within its own sphere of influence. What we do not rely on primary sources for is to tell us about the notability of the subject within a larger sphere of influence than the scope of the primary sources themselves. That is, we rely on the sources given here to indicate where Celene falls within the fictional universe of Greyhawk because the sources are authoritative within that scope. You continue to confuse primary sources with non-sources. They have their value. -Harmil 14:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You are 100% incorrect. Notability of a fictional concept cannot be established with in-universe information. Primary sources allow you to discuss the topic within another relevant article, but they do not justify a stand alone article. By using only primary sources the article fails WP:NOT, WP:NOT, WP:N, and WP:FICT. Jay32183 20:38, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep per Harmil above. Web Warlock 13:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Fancruft, no notability, fails WP:FICT Macktheknifeau 14:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep or Merge to Flanaess. Pinball22 14:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge summary into Flanaess. RJH (talk) 18:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: That's right, we must delete this trivial article that's only useful to a few thousand people in order to save electrons. Remember, save those electrons, they're more important than you think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.148.100 (talk) 18:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep per Harmil.--Robbstrd 21:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete or Merge This topic is not notable on its own, perhaps some of this might be useful info as part of an article about something notable.BreathingMeat 22:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep per Harmil. Also, what are "ghits on fansites"? Rray 02:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Apparently, ghits is "Google-hits", which apparently turns up mostly fansites when the term is searched for. BOZ 20:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I guess that makes sense, although I've never heard the word before. Rray 23:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete No secondary sources to establish notability or provide real world context. Jay32183 22:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Harmil. Edward321 03:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.