Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cell (Dragon Ball) (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   merge to List of Dragon Ball characters. BJ Talk 00:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Cell (Dragon Ball)
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Unnotable fictional character with no significant coverage in reliable, third party sources. Fails WP:N, WP:WAF, and WP:PLOT. Was merged to List of Dragon Ball characters per a larger merge discussion, but it was felt that the merge was against consensus and demanded that the article be "properly" taken to AfD for "real consensus" so now doing so. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 15:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions.  -- --  AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 15:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

*Keep. Three points: (a) The character was a pretty major villain in the series, if I remember correctly. (b) The article is well written, relatively well sourced. (c) If you are going to delete this, why keep Pikachu and other similar articles? Bsimmons666 (talk) 17:34, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge, well it is very notable in the series.Tintor2 (talk) 15:50, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge - Notable within the series, as the main villain, but not demonstratedly notable in the non-fictional world Wikipedia inhabits. If reception information can be found, I'll change to a keep. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge to List of Dragon Ball characters. Unlike the previous AfD, in which the nominating editor nominated the article mostly on the fact that the character died in the show, the nom actually makes a good reason to merge and into a better article. The character isn't notable outside of the series, and a huge chunk of the article is plot synopsis and a paragraph or two could reasonably fit in List of Dragon Ball characters. Doc StrangeMailbox Logbook 17:01, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Because Pikachu has outside notability from the series. Doc StrangeMailbox Logbook 18:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll concede Pikachu was a bad choice. But look at all of the other Dragon Ball characters that have their own page. Bsimmons666 (talk) 19:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And look at all of the ones that have been recently merged, and recognize that the merge discussions this article was part of was the first round of such discussions. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 20:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As I look around, I see that you are right. As long as all of the information is kept, I see no reason it should be merged . Bsimmons666 (talk) 20:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I am reconsidering thanks to JJJ999's links....Bsimmons666 (talk) 00:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Merge - The article does not have any notability establishing real world information, so it does not need to exist. TTN (talk) 17:45, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. Main villain of Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT (two series). There is many individual articles in Wikipedia of many villains in another anime/manga series. If there is a problem, the solution is clean-up not deletion. Zero Kitsune (talk) 18:51, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It was meant to have a clean up since June and there is no improvement.Tintor2 (talk) 18:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Cell should be deleted because he is really only known for the Cell Games and we all know how bad those were. He's just made up of different cells and isn't even real. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DBZFAN88 (talk • contribs) 23:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge/redirect without prejudice for unmerging if significant amounts of real-world development and reception are found and added to justify a spinout. Yes, Cell has significant in-universe notability, but all that matters for wikipedia is his real-world notability. Keep !voters keep failing to provide evidence of that. – sgeureka t•c 20:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge any relevant sourced information to List of Dragon Ball characters. Article hasn't improved much since the last afd, so a merger would be the best option. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Um, yeah. Neither is any other character in the Dragon Ball universe.  None of them are real. JuJube (talk) 02:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep i would have chosen to keep this one as sufficiently important, sufficiently distinctive, and sufficiently documented. DGG (talk) 15:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge per eveyone, unfortunately this article had its chance. JuJube (talk) 02:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. Survived AFD with a keep decision only a few months ago. Too soon for renomination. And the fact it hasn't been cleaned up in a few months is irrelevant. Show me the Wikipedia policy that indicates a time limit exists on such things (WP:BLP issues notwithstanding, which I doubt exist with a fictional character). 23skidoo (talk) 23:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge. All the arguments for keep seems to be "he's an important character in the anime!", and not addressing the reasons why this article was nominated in the first place. As Quasirandom says, it needs to be "notable in the non-fictional world Wikipedia inhabits". -- Highwind888, the Fuko Master (talk) 03:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge Fails to demonstrate notability as only primary sources or sources of questionable reliability have been found. Does not seem to have sources for real world context necessary for satisfying WP:PLOT. Jay32183 (talk) 09:55, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep- what has changed since the strong keep AfD only a few months ago? Nothing.  This is premature and bad form from a determined article killer on this subject matter.  It is unsurprising every AfD you make has been killed, and it is also unsurprising you failed to notify the merge discussions as to your actions here.  You're supposed to allow the merge discussion you initiated to finish before running off to do an AfD while everyone waits in good faith for you to reply to the discussion on the "list of characters" for DBZ page.  This is really low, but what can I expect given your past on this...JJJ999 (talk) 00:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * NOTICE- in case anyone is wondering, he's pulled the same trick for Tien, nominating it for an AfD again after only a few months.JJJ999 (talk) 00:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Its been 4, not two, and what has changed is nothing. No sources have been found since that first AfD, in which three editors said merge and another accepted merge over delete. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 00:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Note User:Lord Opeth has opened an informal mediation case against this AfD at Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-10-08 Cell (Dragon Ball). -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 00:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a hilarious post from someone who hasn't even waited for the merge discussion that they initiated to end before AfDing without notice. At least the mediation process doesn't require consensus, meaning his lack of notification (which he in fact gave above) would be meaningless.JJJ999 (talk) 00:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * More Sources- a book to DBZ featuring Cell in it (http://books.google.com/books?id=7WB0onhzumEC&q=cell+dragonball&dq=cell+dragonball&as_brr=0&pgis=1), Cell on the cover, a novel on Dragonball featuring Cell (http://books.google.com/books?id=7mJ89-PNk1MC&dq=cell+dragonball&as_brr=0), voice of Cell noted as a notable role in a film in a guide to contemporary film (http://books.google.com/books?id=luRkAAAAMAAJ&q=cell+dragonball&dq=cell+dragonball&as_brr=0&pgis=1), another independent guide on DBZ (Cell is on the frickin Cover) http://books.google.com/books?id=nH6HKa7CrPYC&q=cell+dragonball&dq=cell+dragonball&as_brr=0&pgis=1, a novel on Manga for grown-ups, featuring Cell in it (http://books.google.com/books?id=rWtQAAAAMAAJ&dq=cell+dragonball&lr=&as_brr=0), a novel on 500 manga villains and heroes, it includes content on Cell (http://books.google.com/books?id=EbWPyAm0E_8C&pg=PA32&dq=cell+dragonball&lr=&as_brr=0&sig=ACfU3U2YChjRNC3fjYALiZh0ffUse9t37g), I noted the nytimes article before. that and the fact the guy is a main character in the anime and manga which has sold hundreds of millions of copies makes it baffling that this guys is not notable as a fictional character...here is an article I found pretty casually (http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-18621952_ITM), and he is mentioned in this article on the $3bill industry that is DBZ (http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-9946793_ITM).  With effort this stuff and more can be found, especially in Japanese news, which is harder to locate with google search.  the change to a redirect prevents this information being added in future.  I have to confess I find the claim a guy who is on the cover, and is one of the major characters of a number of books that have sold hundreds of millions of copies to not be noteable a little odd.  What next, will Tarzan not be notable, owing to a lack of BBC news interviews about Tarzan?  Obviously these characters and storylines have been the subject of interviews, it's just that they were written before the internet, so it proves difficult to find this stuff (much of which is probably in Japanese).  In time it can be found though...JJJ999 (talk) 05:59, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but those are not sources in any sense of the word, and you can't even claim they have real content because it is obvious you don't actually own any of those books are are mostly just guessing based on the Google Book search results - never mind that "cell" refers to an extremely common term in the animation world. The first two are DBZ guides = meaning non-third party sources. The third lists an actor's list of roles, and nothing more. It is not a discussion of Cell as a "notable" character. The fourth is a DBZ game guide, again not a secondary source. The fifth lists DBZ in a lists of books. Please point to the actual discussion on Cell. You have no idea if the sixth has a discussion of cell on it. It isn't searchable. It has a section on DBZ. If you don't own the book, you can't say it has a anything but just his name. Ditto the last source. The results of the search are not viewable so you are just guessing that it has anything more than his name in it and that said name is said in connection with DBZ. The manga selling hundreds of millions of copies does NOT make him notable, it makes the manga notable. Ditto the sales. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 06:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * To call guides to DBZ a "non-3rd party source" when it is not actually published by the owners of DBZ, is simply to distort the meaning of 3rd party. It's like calling a political TV show "non-independent" when it discusses politics, because it is designed to cover politics, or saying a biography of John McCain wouldn't show notability.  It does when it's published by an independent source.  Pojo is not the owner of DBZ, so his book is independent.  It sells alot too.  Glancing over the sources it is obvious they are (with one exception) by independent publishing companies, not Viz, so they are independent.  Yes, the subject matter that the independent publishing company has chosen to publish the book on is dragonball, because they deem dragonball to be notable.  Cell is so notable he is not only in the content, but appears on the cover of at least one of the books.  Nor are the references I made about "cells" in animation, they are clearly about "cell" the person, which when you look over them becomes obvious.  You dismiss Cell in all of them, but you have not read the sources, and you make it clear you have no interest in reading them.JJJ999 (talk) 06:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I like the 'Contemporary Theatre, Film and Television' ref. That is even a '3rd party source' by AnmaFinotera's definition.Bsimmons666 (talk) 00:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Um, you did take a look at that reference, right? It does not discuss the character of Cell, it is listing roles voice actors have played. It does not, as is claimed above, call Cell a "notable" role, even. It is simply noting that Dameon Clarke voiced "Cell, adult Gohan, Killah," etc. in the DB series and gives a brief note about what DB is. That's it. That is not significant coverage of the character, that's note even significant coverage for the voice actor, just a confirmation for roles he played. It is a confirmation that Clarke did the role, but that isn't really needed as the primary source, the dub, already does that. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 00:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

-note- removed one source I messed up.JJJ999 (talk) 06:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.