Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chaim Pinchas Lubinsky


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Although several "keep" opinions apear questionable, nobody except for the nominator supports deletion.  Sandstein  10:55, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Chaim Pinchas Lubinsky

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I almost passed it but the sources gave me the pause - with such unclear sources, this could be a hoax. Now, I don't think it is, but while looking for the sources, no English sources seem to discuss him outside a few websites that don't look very reliable. If there are mentions on books, they are inaccessible to me, and Google Scholar and News have nothing. Now, there may be something in Hebrew or Yddish, but the he wiki article was also recently created by the same relatively new account, and the clincher is, the subject seems to fail WP:ANYBIO and Notability (priests) which says "The Chief Rabbis of nation states with large Jewish communities are notable by virtue of their status." Well, he was chief rabbi of a city, and overall I am afraid this reads like a WP:OBIT of a non-notable priest. Thoughts? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:36, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:36, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:36, 19 August  newspaper articled  2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:36, 19 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment - Please note that many of the references are from Hamodia newspaper that has a circulation of 160,000 according to Business Insider (see: here)--Steamboat2020 (talk) 19:04, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep The name is commonly spelt Lubinski as here, for example. Maybe the title needs work but deletion would be premature when we haven't even got the name variants clear yet.  Andrew🐉(talk) 10:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You are right that the -i variant of his name seems to be more popular (assuming we are talking about the same person). But I reviewed the sources for the -i variant right now and sadly I don't see anything to work with, either. But by all means, if we can find some good sources and salvage it, it would be good for everyone. But if the current biography is comprehensive, than the likely problem is that he just did not do anything notable in his life... Not all rabbis are notable, per cited guidelines, and this so far appears to be the case here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:37, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 14:11, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Comment - Can someone explain in more detail how this person meets WP:Notability (biographies), please? - GizzyCatBella  🍁  09:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus & AleatoryPonderings #1) The man spelled his name "Lubinsky" as opposed to "Lubinski", so I used his spelling. #2) You will see that I used "Zichron Chaim Pinchas, 1986 Brooklyn NY" as reference numerous times throughout the article. "Zichron Chaim Pinchas" was a book published by Rabbi Lubinsky's family on the first anniversary of his death. It is mostly in hebrew and yiddish, however, in the back of the book they published a collection of 9 newspaper articles (some in English) that were written about Rabbi Lubinsky. Unfortunately, they didn't indicate which newspapers these clippings were taken from so I could not quote the initial source as reference. Regardless, it certainly isn't a "hoax". In general, in the immediate aftermath of the holocaust, there were tens of thousands of survivors in the area and the Jewish community in Hannover - at that time - was notable. I also don't think that English articles on the internet should be the litmus test of whether person is notable enough, when we are dealing with a "Polish" born person who was a notable Rabbi in "Germany" and was a member of a "Yiddish" speaking community --Steamboat2020 (talk) 15:39, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Non-English sources are perfectly acceptable, but they still need to pass WP:RS. A book published (WP:SELFPUBLISHed?) by a family tends to run afoul of the WP:GNG requirement of indepdence of sources (see also WP:NOTOBITUARY). If it contains excerots from reliable newspapers, however, that can help. Have you tried looking at newspapers.com and such? You can get access to them through the WP:LIBRARY, IIRC. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:06, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * @Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus: I didn't rely on anything the family wrote in that book. I did rely on the copies of 9 actual newspaper articles that they included in the addendum. Keep in mind, this was published in 1986 before everybody had computers. It would have been virtually impossible for the family to create real looking newspaper articles at that time. Unfortunately, newspapers from that time period that catered to the Orthodox Jewish community aren't on "newspapers.com"--Steamboat2020 (talk) 15:30, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The book "Zichron Chaim Pinchos" was featured in a "book review" in a publication of Agudath Israel of America called "Dos Yiddishe Vort" (November-December Vol. XXXIII Issue 264 page 59) by Joseph Fridenson and it was considered a noteworthy publication. I  therefore consider it to be a reliable reference.--Steamboat2020 (talk) 15:53, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * @ GizzyCatBella : Hannover was one of the largest jewish communities in Europe in the aftermath of the Holocaust. During the holocaust 90% of Polish Jewry were killed (see:The Holocaust in Poland). The survivors had been unable to practice Jewish ritual in the concentration camps and upon liberation most of them didn't immediately just "snap back" to religious observance. Rabbi Lubinsky together with a handful of other Rabbis brought many of these holocaust survivors back "into the fold" and in a large part because of them there are today over 1.8 million Haredi Jews (see: Haredi Judaism). It's important not only to look at the persons activities, within the context of the time period they were performed in, but also look at how they impacted future generations. Rabbi Lubinsky played a vital role in rebuilding Haredi Judaism from ashes of the Holocaust and for that he is notable.--Steamboat2020 (talk) 15:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Keep this great scholar and rebbe! Lubinski was a Polish Holocaust survivor and lost his wife at Stutthof. In the immediate aftermath of the war he was instrumental in rebuilding the spiritual life of Jewish Polish refugees who fled the pogroms in Poland to the Bergen-Belsen refugee camp in the British occupation zone. Much has been written on this great scholar:  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lomed Tamid (talk • contribs) 09:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

In 1944 he was a forced laborer in the HASAG camp in Częstochowa Poland. He organized the chasidim to keep Pesach, not eating chametz. They stored food in secret. They hid potatoes for the holiday, and furtively roasted them in an industrial oven. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lomed Tamid (talk • contribs) 10:27, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Ping User:Sandstein: can you add whatever template(s) are customary used here to indicate we have a WP:SPA here, whose edits are limited to participation in this AfD? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:47, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Just because @Lomed Tamid is a new user whose edits are limited to this discussion doesn’t change the fact that the 10 books quoted are very helpful to this discussion.--Steamboat2020 (talk) 13:53, 21 August 2020 (UTC) Just to clarify: I agree that @Lomed Tamid seems to have some personal connection to Rabbi Lubinsky and the "keep" vote shouldn't carry any weight. However, the substance that this user provided to our discussion shouldn't just be ignored because the user happens to have a personal agenda--Steamboat2020 (talk) 18:05, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment I reviewed the 10 books (in hebrew) cited above by @Lomed Tamid that speak about Rabbi Lubinsky at length. I believe 10 books (written by different authors covering many different subjects) in addition to the sources already provided as references in the article qualifies as "Significant coverage" and bestows "notability" (see: Notability) upon the subject. I could build the additional 10 books into the page and cite them as references. However, I don't want to waste anymore time working on a page that is nominated to be deleted. Once notability is established by an administrator then we can discuss improving the article. --Steamboat2020 (talk) 17:33, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you provide bibliographical information, page numbers, and quotes from those book, to demonstrate the sources are reliable and not in passing? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:47, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * those 10 books largely discusses Rabbi Lubinsky’s leadership role during the Holocaust.
 * Book #1: Title: With My Close Ones, I Shall Be Sanctified. Author: Rabbi Joshua Eibschitz. Published in 2004 discusses Rabbi Lubinsky at length on pages 351-359


 * Book #2: Title: The Magnificence of Israel. Author: Aaron Swerski. Published in 1997 devotes several paragraphs discussing Rabbi Lubinsky on page 350.


 * Book #3: Title: God’s Sanctifiers. Author: Yechiel Granatstein. Published in 2006 devotes several paragraphs to discussing Rabbi Lubinsky on page 304


 * Book#4 Title: The Holocaust & It’s Survivors. Author: Gershon Greenberg - Bar-Ilan University. Published in 1994 devotes several paragraphs to discussing Rabbi Lubinsky on page 277


 * Book#5 Title: Tree of Our Forefathers . Author: Simkah Reiz . Published in 1993 discusses Rabbi Lubinsky at length on pages 85-87


 * Book#6 Title: With Holiness & Strength. Author: Rabbi Joshua Eibschitz. Published in 1993 devotes several paragraphs to discussing Rabbi Lubinsky on page 66


 * Book #7 Title: Holocaust Survivors in Germany. Author: Tsemach Tzamiron. Published in 1970 devotes several paragraphs to discussing Rabbi Lubinsky on pages 54-55


 * Book #8 Title: Glory & Strength . Author: Yechiel Granatstein. Published in 1986 devotes several paragraphs to discussing Rabbi Lubinsky on page 86


 * Book #9 Title: Greatness of Jews in The Concentration Camps. Author: Menashe Unger. Published in 1970 devotes several paragraphs to discussing Rabbi Lubinsky on page 224

--Steamboat2020 (talk) 13:46, 21 August 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: There's tons of text above, but very little of it provides any substantial argument for notability. To carry weight, any arguments need to demonstrate that the subject meets one or more notability guidelines; nothing else counts.
 * Book #10 Title: Haggadah- Passover in Concentration Camp. Author: Gideon Rafael Ben Michael. Published in 2016 devotes several paragraphs to discussing Rabbi Lubinsky on page 32
 * Keep based on WP:AGF and GNG. I can't verify Steamboat2020's sources because I can't read Hebrew, but Steamboat2020 has effectively met Piotrus' challenge to name and describe the Hebrew sources. — Toughpigs (talk) 16:40, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, per AGF, you are right. If we assume those books exist and are reliable (not self-published, etc.). I'd like to see their original names and/or links to worldcat. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 00:42, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * @Piotrus: The links to the books were already provided above by @Lomed-Tamid. As per your request, I provided the bibliographical information and page numbers in English from those book. I really, don't understand what more you want??--Steamboat2020 (talk) 16:35, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * First, please note that what I am asking for is not required, as in, you don't have to do this, and the article may well be kept even if you ignore my request. But what I'd like to see (and if I see it I'd withdraw my deletion vote) would be at least two paragraphs, in English (so, translated quotes) that show that the subject has been discussed in-depth (and not in passing), plus commentary on why the sources being quoted from are reliable (i.e. not self-published or written by relatives or people with WP:COI). That would demonstrate the subject passes GNG/ANYBIO beyond any doubt. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:35, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * @PIOTRUS: _ Respectfully, I feel like you keep moving the goal post--Steamboat2020 (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Lubinski -  notable Holocaust survivor. Steamboat2020 has found some reliable sources and presented them here. Wm335td (talk) 17:49, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep- seems notable--Cts499m (talk) 20:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:ITSNOTABLE. Account has <20 edits at the time of the vote. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 00:42, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * true, but I still can have an opinion on the matter--Cts499m (talk) 01:14, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Of course. Except given that per WP:DUCK you are not a new editor, but a returning one, one has to wonder whether you are not trying to avoid a ban or vote twice here... --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:59, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Assume good faith!--Cts499m (talk) 21:22, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Towards an account that cites a policy in their <20th edit in a niche Wikipedia discussion? Our social policies are not a suicide pact.--<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:31, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * @Piotrus: Although contributions from newcomers are not always viewed as equally important, deletion is not decided by voting anyway (see: Introduction_to_deletion_process). That is why I prefer to focus on the substance of the arguments being made by the participants of this discussion instead of just focusing on the person's username account history.--Steamboat2020 (talk) 16:47, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * We need to strike the balance between arguments and potential WP:POINTed disruption. For example, in the last few months I've been a victim of on- and off-wiki harassment by a now-indef banned editor who was active in the topic area this article is related to and who has used dozens of socks. Now, I am not saying they are engaged in this discussion, and assuming good faith is good, as I don't want to poison the well. At the same time, to ignore the possibility that someone is trying to disrupt our process and harass editors would invoke another adage, about putting one hand in the sand. We need to consider the arguments, yes, but sometimes there is a more to them than appears. When an account is clearly new and edits a problematic area, it may be a coincidence - or not. WP:VANISH or WP:DUCK? Toss a coin I guess. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  03:31, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * @Piotrus - even if we discard the comments of the new users there are still enough established editors who voted to keep this article - respectfully - you are the only who questioned whether this article should be kept--Steamboat2020 (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. One of the most important rabbis in the British occupation zone. Thousands of agunot were freed of tether and allowed to remarry by his rulings. The hostility of the nominator is incomprehensible, is there some ulterior motive here? NochiZ (talk) 11:42, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: While I strongly believe Rabbi Lubinsky is noteworthy and I advocate to keep his page. Nevertheless, I need to point out that @Nochiz's edits are limited to participation in this AfD--Steamboat2020 (talk) 16:25, 23 August 2020 (UTC) However, reasonable arguments from newcomers are always welcome (see: Introduction_to_deletion_process).--Steamboat2020 (talk) 17:06, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (Talk) 18:37, 26 August 2020 (UTC) Comment: among the excessive text above, there certainly was a substantial argument made for notability. In fact, other then the nominator (@piotrus), the consensus was to keep the page. Granted, there were a couple of new users (@Lomed Tamid & @nochiZ) who participated but the majority were established users (@Andrew Davidson and @Toughpigs and @Wm335td and @Cts499m) and they all voted to keep it.--Steamboat2020 (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: I believe Steamboat2020 sources demonstrate notability. <span style="font-family:Courier New, Courier, monospace;"> // Timothy ::  talk  05:13, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. I'm satisfied as to notability with the non-English sources.--Jahaza (talk) 01:31, 7 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.