Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Char Dham (Vedic)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Deor (talk) 12:51, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Char Dham (Vedic)

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WP:OR (possibly WP:HOAX). No RS that says that Char Dham exists in Vedic scriptures. Redtigerxyz Talk 06:36, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hinduism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:33, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Redtigerxyz Talk It is very sad to note that you have termed this topic as original research and a hoax because you have not found a reliable source that indicates Char Dham exists in Vedic literature. It seems you have not appreciated the contents of section – "Pratardana’s description of the four Dhams". Two significant Mantras from the Rig Veda i.e. IX.96.18 and IX.96.19 referred to by two authors, have been cited in this section and explained by those authors. You may not know Sanskrit and Hindi but permit me to lead you to Rig Veda Vol. 5 pages 335,336 published online by Aryasamaj Jamnagar which is actually Swami Dayanand Saraswati’s translation of the Rig Veda and his commentary on that text. Dham means plane of existence. To assist you please notice the words – तृतीयं धाम at the start of the second line of mantra IX.96.18 on page 335 which is explained by Dayananda Saraswati on page 336 as – (तृतीयं, धाम) (pronounced - triteeyam dhaam; triteeyam means 'three') (three dhams) are देवयान ("Devayana or Devaloka") और ("and") पितृयान ("Pitriyana") इन दोनों से पृथक् ("beyond these two") तीसरा ("third") जो ("which") मुक्तिधाम ("Muktidham") है ("is"). In the mantra IX.96.19 second line page 336 you will find two words – तुरीयं धाम (pronounced - tureeyam dhaam; tureeyam or Turiya means "the fourth"). Dayanada Saraswati explains (तुरीयम्) चौथा ("fourth") (धाम) ("dham") परमपद ("the highest state") परमात्मा (Paramatman) है ("is"). The link to this text is http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org/rugveda_v5/rugveda.htm. Aditya soni (talk) 08:28, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Aditya soni, you are quoting a verse (WP:PRIMARY). Yes, in the Rig Veda, as per the translation, in two verses in the Veda; some places are called dhams; but is "Char Dham" a separate philosophical concept? No. It is OR to interpret this translation as a philosophical standalone concept on its own merit. No RS author (I could trace) has categorized it as so, no one even uses the "Char Dham" term in this context. I am commenting after reading Dayananda Saraswati's commentary in Hindi. Redtigerxyz  Talk 05:42, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Dear Mr. Redtigerxyz, the expression "Char Dham" does not appear in the Vedas as such; agreed, but then, the Vedas do speak about the subject four places or states of existence as dhams and enumerate them as three plus the fourth and thus add up to four, therefore, I have said four dhams; there is no original research conducted by me. In case you agree, this article can be re-titled as – "Four Vedic dhams" and retained suitably amended, but not if you have otherwise some objection to its contents itself. The option rests with you. I appreciate your concern.Aditya soni (talk) 02:37, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The problem not even Dayananda classifies them as an independent concept in his commentary; he just translates the verse. Without explicit religious/academic commentary saying these four "dham"s are a philosophical concept; the article is WP:OR. Significance is pure WP:SYTH. "Those opting for the Deva-dham and the Pitri-dham do not attain Moksha" is not supported by the ref. Ref 8 just covers turiya, but not in the context of the alleged four dhams of the Rig Veda. Redtigerxyz  Talk 13:53, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes User:Redtigerxyz, Dayanand Saraswati is being misinterpreted here. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {T/C} 10:40, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete. At best, this is Dayananda Saraswati's personal interpretation, which has not been discussed widely in academic/scholarly sources to be notable enough. The references in the article do not directly support this concept - they are about the individual concepts that the author is trying to combine and present as "Char Dham". utcursch | talk 18:36, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Utcursch, Dayanand Saraswati never said that anywhere. He talked about 4 eras, castes, etc but not Dham or Yatra. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete - Almost no recognition. We have Char Dham. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. This looks like a personal interpretation of religious texts, as is exemplified with the extremenly confusing nature of its statements and the language used. Absolutely incomprehensible to any lay person and as such falls under WP:NOT. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 17:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.