Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Characters of Dragon Prince


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. / ƒETCH COMMS  /  03:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Characters of Dragon Prince

 * – ( View AfD View log ) •

Contested prod. Fictional characters for which there are no reliable sources to support notability. See related AfD. VernoWhitney (talk) 04:31, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. Character lists for notable series and franchises (such as this one) are usually kept. I agree that the article currently lacks sources, but there's nothing a clean-up couldn't do.--hkr Laozi speak   08:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * How will a clean-up of this article establish notability? Are there reliable sources with significant coverage of these characters that I'm missing? VernoWhitney (talk) 12:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * For lists, the characters do not have to individually be notable for the article to be kept, only the subject. This is per established guidelines (WP:LSC): Lists are created when the subject is notable but "every entry in the list fails the notability criteria. These lists are created explicitly because most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles: for example, List of minor characters in Dilbert or List of paracetamol brand names." References can be extracted from book reviews, which often contain an analysis of the characters (such as this book of reviews from 1993). A list like List of Friday the 13th characters can be used as an example when cleaning up this article.--hkr Laozi speak   13:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm aware of that, thanks. I'm afraid that still doesn't answer my question though. Your google books link was broken, I think this is what you were trying for, which does show some review of the characters. Without the full source it's hard to judge whether it amounts to significant coverage or not, even when combined over a group of characters. VernoWhitney (talk) 14:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a list, not a separate article, see the list guidelines (WP:LSC). As long as the subject has been verified to be notable per WP:N, and the the list is not indiscriminate per WP:NOT, there's no policy against including lists for characters or episodes. Lists are encouraged especially for cases like this, where "every entry in the list fails the notability criteria". This is not to say that the list should be unsourced, it still needs to follow WP:RS, but I've shown that there are sources from reviews out there.--hkr Laozi speak   20:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Um... except for the fact that it IS a separate article or there wouldn't be an AfD just for it. If it was part of another article then it would just be editing at the article and not taken here. WP:LIST and WP:STAND are style guides, they address what goes into a list and how it's presented; neither of them address whether or not to have the list as a stand alone article in the first place. The portion of WP:N which links to WP:STAND states "The notability guidelines are only used to determine whether a topic can have its own separate article" (emphasis original). I'm not saying that there's not necessarily a place for the information in the series article or somewhere else, but I don't see guidelines that support this as a distinct article without reliable sources just like any non-list article requires. The book you cited earlier may be a reliable source for the characters, but it's hard to get alot out of the viewable snippets. VernoWhitney (talk) 21:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's still a guideline. And the guideline has an entire section on notability for lists: SAL. Also, when it says "separate articles", it's referring to non-list articles. This makes sense in the context: In the following paragraph, it says that articles that don't meet WP:N may merit inclusion into lists. --hkr Laozi speak   21:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "It IS a separate article". No, it is not. The WP:N even specifically states that WP:N does not directly apply to lists. If it is a list, it follows the WP:LSC guideline, as linked to in WP:N.--hkr Laozi speak   21:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * To sum up what I've been saying, the guideline states that lists are assumed to be notable if the subject has been established to be notable. The primary concern is reliable sources, not notability. However, there is one exception, notability is a requirement for lists of real people, such as List of people from Texas. --hkr Laozi speak   21:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm apparently still missing something, because as far as I can tell, all that the body of WP:N says about lists is that "notability may be used as an inclusion criterion for lists. This guideline does not override that usage", and then a footnote for merging says that "articles on minor characters in a work of fiction may be merged into a 'list of minor characters in ...'". Could you please quote the part that says that N doesn't apply to lists, or that list articles are not articles per se, or that lists are assumed notable if there about something that's a part of something notable? Or could you quote a part form WP:LSC that states that it is for something besides determining the content of a list? VernoWhitney (talk) 01:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this has been a silly debate over definitions, this may revolve around simple misunderstandings. But from my perspective, you've been cherrypicking my quotes. I never said WP:N doesn't apply to lists. I said it doesn't directly apply to lists. As in, it applies to the topic of the list (which is what WP:N is for), and not every single character listed on it, as you have implied. Nor did I said list articles are not articles, I said lists are not considered to be separate articles, because they're made of individually non-notable entries on a notable topic merged into an entry that is considered notable. Lists are a collection of separate non-notable articles merged into one notable article. And I think the WP:N footnote has made it pretty clear: "Articles on minor characters in a work of fiction may be merged into a "list of minor characters"" This is a collection of minor characters from a notable franchise. Why shouldn't they be merged into a list?--hkr Laozi speak   02:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * My points still stand, but rereading through our conversation, maybe we should just blame this on the ambiguities of language. :P --hkr Laozi speak   02:09, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. VernoWhitney (talk) 03:23, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Character lists are perfectly standard spinout articles to keep the main article from growing too large. Edward321 (talk) 17:38, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to sound like I'm badgering, but I have two questions for you: which policy/guideline supports this instead of notability, and how is an 18k article for the series too large? VernoWhitney (talk) 18:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The WP:LIST and WP:LSC guidelines apply specifically to lists such as this one. And the notabiliy guideline links to WP:LSC for cases involving lists.--hkr Laozi speak   20:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And I was asking Edward321, I think we can handle only talking to each in one place on this page and not two. VernoWhitney (talk) 21:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep Notable author, notable books. Peridon (talk) 21:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, notable author, notable books. That's not the question. The question is notable characters? VernoWhitney (talk) 21:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If a book that's notable doesn't have notable characters, it's probably a dictionary (or a maths textbook...). :) Peridon (talk) 22:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep per hkr and because wikipedia usually allows character lists for franchises/trilogies etc (because having one list of barely notable entries is preferable to 20 individual article of barely/non-notable characters, sort of a compromise that has worked for the last two years). Optional rename to List of Dragon Prince characters to make clear this is a list, not an article where WP:N would directly apply. – sgeureka t•c 07:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Sounds like a good idea (the rename). Peridon (talk) 11:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete- I believe a merge is only appropriate if there is content in the article that is suitable to be included somewhere else. This is nothing but sourceless, in-universe plot summary and I do not think it improves the encyclopedia to put any of its contents anywhere. Reyk  YO!  22:47, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep So far from deletion, this is the ideal way to handle this sort of content. The rule about notability does not apply to article content, and the way to handle possibly sub-notable content is a combination article.  The characters that are notable, can of course justify separate articles.    DGG ( talk ) 01:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep If the original series is notable enough for an article, spinning off the list of characters keeps it down to a reasonable length. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.