Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charles Borremans


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 15:27, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Charles Borremans

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Unable to find WP:SIGCOV of the subject, making him fail WP:BASIC. References in the article include a passing mention in the biography of Joseph Borremans, and another passing mention in the list of the composers. WP:BEFORE search just brings passing mentions in books and results for a businessman of the same name. The article created by a sockpuppet apparently. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 11:41, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 11:41, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 11:41, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Belgium-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:52, 3 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep and expand. According to this, Charles overshadowed his brother. Seems a historic figure we should know about even if little is known. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:35, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Expand with what? Even the source you mentioned has only one sentence about the guy "from 1807 to 1820, he assisted his brother as ‘sous-chef’ when he was a conductor at the Théâtre Royal de la Monnaie in Brussels, and under the Dutch rule he was part of the ‘musique particulière’ of king William I as a pianist, while his brother was the Kapellmeister." This is also before going into depth of the source for fact-checking (not written by any staff etc.) Your argument fails per WP:ITSNOTABLE and hugely contradicts Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 09:37, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * (ec) Other source: composition. - After edit conflict: how is a conductor at La Monnaie, one of the leading opera houses in the world, not notable? - After another edit conflict: how about less rhetoric? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:44, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't see how that source is WP:SIGCOV that is required. Also WP:NOTINHERITED shuts down the conductor argument, as he can't inherit notability from a notable thing. Same like how CEOs of notable companies can't be automatically notable. I don't mind a redirect to Joseph Borremans/having a Borremans brothers article, but as standalone I don't see it. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 09:49, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * (ec) The source looks like a translation from Dutch which I don't speak. Drmies? - Out for now, I have work waiting. Long live formality ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:52, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Haha it's in Flemish--can't read that! ;) Drmies (talk) 14:23, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to thank you for being a hardworking source searcher, whether our opinions are the different or not. :) There is still a WP:SIGCOV issue, but it's a great source for any minor addition to something else. Also I am kinda confused: the bio is about Joseph, yet it's claiming Charles overshadowed him? Why not do a proper bio on him too? So odd. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 09:57, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Charles didn't so much "overshadow" his brother--rather, Joseph lived in his shadow for a while: "Zo assisteerde hij van 1807 tot 1820 als ‘sous-chef’ zijn broer toen die dirigent was van de Muntschouwburg in Brussel en maakte hij onder het Hollands Bewind als pianist deel uit van het ‘musique particulière’ van koning Willem I, waarvan zijn broer kapelmeester was". (He was "sous-chef" when his brother was director, he played piano in the joint that his brother ran.) After the 1816 performance of L’offrande à l’hymen, ou Rose et Hippolyte on the occasion of Willem II's wedding his career took off--that's what the source says. Drmies (talk) 14:29, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * This and this. Drmies (talk) 15:00, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for translation help - and I was told Flemish doesn't even exist ;) - This and this look like twice the same to me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:04, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Yeah, this seems like a good redirect/merge target for Joseph Borremans now, especially in his life context. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 15:34, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The we'd have two categories birth year, etc, - I find it quite confusing, and would always prefer two individual articles, even if one is short. My excceptions so far: a piano duo and a couple of artists who published under their vcombined names.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:55, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   11:30, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Redirect/Merge Not finding much to warrant an independent page. It might be better to include this information on a related and more notable subject's page as has been suggested. That being said, there are a few sources on Google Books that might push this one over the top in regard to WP:SIGCOV, but most of those sources are in French (which I don't read). Someone who can read French might want to take a look at those.Gargleafg (talk) 00:55, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Louis Alain is French, and very helpful. Could you point out those books? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:51, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Several sources say that Charles Borremans was "chef d'orchestre du Théâtre de la Monnaie", ; "1r [=1st] chef d'orchestre à la Monnaie" , "occupa définitivement le poste de chef d'orchestre" . He was also a composer - I have added this source to the article ; Gerda has mentioned one above (which names Charles as the composer of a work that, on the webpage about the younger brother, Joseph is said to have composed???) ; in this one the snippet doesn't show the name of the work, just that Borremans was the composer . Another work, Le Prix ou l'Embarras du Choix, apparently was thought to be his work, but an article in Revue belge de Musicologie / Belgisch Tijdschrift voor Muziekwetenschap in 1951 suggests it was actually composed by J. B. Radet. Whether Charles Borremans was actually the composer of these works or not, people have written about him - claiming that he was, claiming that he wasn't, etc. I do read French, but as Gerda has also said, there are sources in Dutch as well - not surprising when he was Belgian. This , for example, seems to be a "Forty years ago ..." article about a performance of an opera that Charles Borreman conducted. (I see that some of these sources have been provided above.) Snippet view on Google Books does not allow us to see the extent of the coverage, but this source  appears to have two pages about him (41 and 42). I think that in 19th century Belgium, he was definitely notable, so we should add these sources and look for more (are there digitised Belgian newspapers and periodicals from that era?) rather than delete the article about him. RebeccaGreen (talk) 18:10, 18 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.