Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charles Wachter


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. –MuZemike 05:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Charles Wachter

 * – ( View AfD View log )

For a genealogy are other mediums present on internet. For Wikipedia this article is not notable. Night of the Big Wind talk  21:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of North Dakota-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 22:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 22:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Weak keep - The article cites a very large number of reliable sources spanning a considerable period of time. The sources appear to only relate to individual Wachters, rather than the family as a whole, but they're all offline so it's hard to check.  Nevertheless the number of sources would suggest that there is sufficient verifiable coverage in reliable sources to found an article on this topic, even if none of the sources directly address the family as a whole.  On the face of it, as a result, it appears to narrowly pass WP:GNG in that even if it is a geneaology article, it's a notable geneaology (see for example Kennedy family).  I'm open to being convinced otherwise by reference to policy. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CharlieEchoTango  ( contact ) 04:27, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete (redirect?) As per WP:BIO a person is not notable by virtue of being related to someone else. And if any of these individuals are notable they need their own pages. A brief section about this family in the Bismarck article would perhaps be more appropriate. Though it's worth noting that no one with this surname is mentioned in the Bismarck article as it currently stands. asnac (talk) 09:22, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep and Rename as Gottlieb Charles Wachter. There needs to be a scalpel wielded by an experienced WP editor to decruft all the peripheral family history here, but they've named an aquatic center and a Junior High school after the family, and that should be a tipper that this is a substantive topic for encyclopedic biography. I know that renaming pieces during Articles for Deletion challenges is frowned upon, but I'm pretty sure that this is the correct solution to the mystery and have a notion to get in touch with the content creator — who seems to still be working on the piece — to talk over things and see about getting this morphed into a valid encyclopedic piece. I'll do that now, actually. Carrite (talk) 16:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete It doesn't matter how well-referenced something it. References do not in themselves confer notability, they merely support evidence of it. By the nature of thing, genealogical research produced impeccable references, but that does not make any family noteworthy. There will be a need for articles on families (e.g. the Habsburgs, the Medicis, the Kennedys even) where the family itself has its own notability in addition to the personal notability of some of its member, but this is not one of them. The individual members of the Wachters are mostly insignificant (for an encyclopedia) and I'm not convinced that any of them merits an article. Emeraude (talk) 17:34, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment - I have reworked the article into a biography of the Bismarck, North Dakota pioneer and patriarch Charles Wachter, with much of the genealogical material pared away and the matter of historic importance retained. Note that there is a Wachter Aquatic Center and a Wachter Middle School in Bismarck, indicative of the importance of the individual and the family. Carrite (talk) 19:40, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete While an improvement, the article still reads like an obituary and seems a bit fawning. Wachter Aquatic Center and Wachter Middle School are named that not because of anyone's notability, but simply because the land for their construction was donated by the Wachter family. Being rich and donating land to the school board does not warrant a Wikipedia article. LinkTiger (talk) 21:45, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - I hadn't heard of the Wachters of ND until coming here, but the article feels entirely encyclopedic. The reliable independent citations support a well-written article about what does feel like a Notable Family (not just the patriarch Charles, though I hear what has been said above), and would like to see fair-use photos of the Wachter Warehouse at least. Well done Carrite for making the best of AfD. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:49, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep I agree with Carrite's movement. With respect for the people debating this and hope that the topic will survive, I amicably submit my comments.

The Wachter name is all over Bismarck. Besides the Wachter Aquatic Center, schools and the warehouse, there is a street called Wachter Avenue that stretches across the south side of the city. The former Wachter warehouse itself is a downtown landmark.

In the original article, I only cited 5 newspaper sources that concerned Gottlieb Charles Wachter directly. Several more of the newspaper sources and the books I used mentioned him, as well. The North Dakota State Historical Society has copies of these newspaper sources on microfilm in their reading room. There are several other newspaper sources as well that I didn't cite. The details seemed sundry, but they covered everything from small political situations that Charles Gottlieb Wachter was involved in to business happenings and family events posted on the society page.

The economy of North Dakota is booming, and Bismarck continues to grow with it. Part of that growth is dependent on the remnant of the Wachter family. Even after the dissolution of the family empire, Wachter family members still invest in and develop land there. As part of Charles Wachter's legacy, it makes the topic both notable and timely.

I understand that I overdid it in my first try at a Wikipedia article. While I refine my efforts to write good pieces on Wikipedia, I appeal to your good judgment to keep this topic alive and open for future improvement. Gbristol (talk) 22:33, 3 December 2011 (UTC)