Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Checkley Sin


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There is understandable uncertainty around political notability and over time, this may ultimately end up merged when the election is not a current event. However at the current time and given the sources identified during the discussion, there is consensus that Sin's career outside of the election has been noted so it's not a 1E situation. Star  Mississippi  14:01, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Checkley Sin

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

non notable producer and non notable political candidate - fails WP:NPOL. CUPIDICAE💕 19:37, 23 March 2022 (UTC)


 * keep - See 2022 Hong Kong Chief Executive election, particularly the chart near the bottom of the article. You want to delete one of two candidates running?!!!! Deletion of articles on Wikipedia states "Wikipedia policy encourages editors to use deletion as a "last resort" following attempts to improve an article, for instance by conducting additional research.". Instead, this article was AFD when it was only 2 sentences and 300 bytes in length. Now, it's 5,000 bytes and much longer.


 * WP:NPOL Meets the criteria of having significant press coverage.


 * WP:ENT Meets the criteria by having significant roles in multiple productions.


 * Mr. Sin is a candidate, the first candidate, for Hong Kong's Chief Executive (akin to President or Prime Minister). US presidential candidates are considered notable, even if they are in the Libertarian or Green Parties. Note: HK does not have the Democratic or Republican parties. Hong Kong is currently subject to draconian censorship and threat of arrest from the People's Republic of China so some leeway is warranted for freedom and democracy. This quote may disprove the non-notability. "From Ip Man to CE: film producer Checkley Sin joins election fray   | The Standard...Checkley Sin Kwok-lam, the producer of the Ip Man series starring Donnie Yen Ji-dan, said he wants to improve ...Sin has been a political commentator since the unrest in 2019. He is known as a key opinion leader (KOL) for the pro-establishment camp, and his YouTube channel has 150,000 subscribers.  https://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking-news/section/4/186147/From-Ip-Man-to-CE:-film-producer-Checkley-Sin-joins-election-fray-%C2%A0%C2%A0 Also IMDB entry. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1641638/awards/?ref_=tt_awd Mr. Sin's Ip Man film WON an award in the Shanghai International Film Festival and was nominated for an award for the 2011 Hong Kong Film Awards.

NOTE: Mainland China probably wants this article deleted!


 * Problem: Some people may not know that Checkley Sin is his English name. His Chinese name is Sin Kwok Lam or Kwok Lam Sin. A Google search of Kwok Lam Sin yields 935,000 results with the first 10 pages almost exclusively about the man. Checkley Sin yields an additional 151,000 results.Charliestalnaker (talk) 19:48, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Anyone can be a candidate. That alone does not make him notable. CUPIDICAE💕  19:49, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Not true, not anyone. It is difficult to become a candidate in Hong Kong. Charliestalnaker (talk) 20:04, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * He is the first person to declare his candidacy for the Hong Kong Chief Executive Election, so he is notable in a way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Studious Human (talk • contribs) 01:56, 31 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers and Hong Kong. Shellwood (talk) 19:56, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Businesspeople.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 19:56, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - as I read the article he fails WP:GNG in general, and fails WP:POLITICIAN in particular. Notwithstanding the film Ip Man: The Final Fight he fails WP:FILMMAKER and WP:ENTERTAINER. The alleged wish of Mainland China to see the article deleted is irrelevant. See below: Springnuts (talk) 21:55, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Meets WP:GNG
 * www.scmp.com%2Fnews%2Fhong-kong%2Fpolitics%2Farticle%2F3163894%2Fhong-kong-film-producer-kung-fu-master-checkley-sin-throws&usg=AOvVaw0kgvxKkwbcgtuWhGMzxem_
 * https://sg.news.yahoo.com/sin-kwok-lam-donate-lau-kar-leung-39-035300979.html?msclkid=6a3822beab3e11ecb75791d962c57f83
 * https://sg.news.yahoo.com/sin-kwok-lam-dennis-needed-ask-084800228.html?msclkid=6a380825ab3e11eca3088c7cb12ea8e9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charliestalnaker (talk • contribs) 06:50, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * https://www.reuters.com/world/china/hong-kong-film-producer-says-he-wants-run-become-new-city-leader-2022-01-19/
 * www.dimsumdaily.hk%2Fcheckley-sin-kwok-lam-announces-decision-to-run-for-chief-executive-on-youtube%2F&usg=AOvVaw174X7hSVHKEthDU2o0aZZb
 * www.wsj.com%2Fmarket-data%2Fquotes%2FHK%2F8393%2Fcompany-people%2Fexecutive-profile%2F74810848&usg=AOvVaw3kV8CJqua7pScjRiP12rPI
 * www.thestandard.com.hk%2Fbreaking-news%2Fsection%2F4%2F186147%2FFrom-Ip-Man-to-CE%3A-film-producer-Checkley-Sin-joins-election-fray-%25C2%25A0%25C2%25A0&usg=AOvVaw3zCbTlMPymcKIDiB59W5S9
 * https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/926450-hong-kong-filmmaker-checkley-sin-intends-to-run-in-citys-leadership-race
 * www.marketscreener.com%2Fbusiness-leaders%2FKwok-Lam-Sin-074P0V-E%2Fbiography%2F&usg=AOvVaw1oruwRU8iO9u1fkXCIgFFW
 * www.fandango.com%2Fpeople%2Fsin-kwok-lam-624744&usg=AOvVaw3WLtddHCHBZu0lgfp0IpOu
 * blackbeltmag.com%2Fproducer-of-ip-man-hong-kong-leadership&usg=AOvVaw3SURO1IvMsc_krddJMPsE3
 * www.themoviedb.org%2Fperson%2F1296142-kwok-lam-sin&usg=AOvVaw2iR54Z6paoAki1nIkRfkyo
 * sg.news.yahoo.com%2Fdennis-sues-mentor-sin-kwok-lam-090700161.html&usg=AOvVaw1UWvb7WqYJ5kOAkcaplR1w
 * www.jaynestars.com%2Ftag%2Fsin-kwok-lam%2F&usg=AOvVaw0tn89tlLnsn_aTwnVWhZp7
 * www.hkcinemagic.com%2Fen%2Fpeople.asp%3Fid%3D19287&usg=AOvVaw2wQesFU2kjcsZtrsW7U8Lq
 * www.devdiscourse.com%2Farticle%2Fentertainment%2F1888403-hong-kong-film-producer-says-he-wants-to-run-to-become-new-city-leader&usg=AOvVaw26YWlDasoi-RGOHKDIgqJG
 * usa.chinadaily.com.cn%2Fus%2F2017-12%2F03%2Fcontent_35175430.htm&usg=AOvVaw33I4XdOnEFqwocrRfmsa6o
 * www.gettyimages.com%2Fdetail%2Fnews-photo%2Fcheckley-sin-kwok-lam-director-and-general-manager-of-wing-news-photo%2F1126337965&usg=AOvVaw0DfWrAgC7h-Dphl1a12poV
 * www.malaymail.com%2Fnews%2Fworld%2F2022%2F01%2F19%2Ffilm-producer-and-kung-fu-master-checkley-sin-wants-to-run-hong-kong-as-lea%2F2036137&usg=AOvVaw2xauDa2q0fhFxnCP_MDtx8
 * www.taipeitimes.com%2FNews%2Fworld%2Farchives%2F2022%2F01%2F20%2F2003771748&usg=AOvVaw2cyuGqTqq8NYwkO1Xa_Kik
 * kungfumovieguide.com%2Fproducers%2Fcheckley-sin-kwok-lam%2F&usg=AOvVaw0JdRCrqbu43Ze7jPwDsNmg
 * www.aastocks.com%2Fen%2Fmobile%2Fnews.aspx%3Fnewsid%3DNOW.854671%26newstype%3D61%26newssource%3Dhk6&usg=AOvVaw3hb6HAatSr4GPuD3M0Cz6i
 * cityonfire.com%2Fw020120515302250712841%2F&usg=AOvVaw35vt1OztIh-MecpTTxHedP
 * movie.douban.com%2Fcelebrity%2F1327358%2F&usg=AOvVaw2o-7q1h9ibaE8ZYfgiUyYI
 * peopleai.com%2Ffame%2Fidentities%2Fkwok-lam-sin&usg=AOvVaw0LB0nzvyBbscj-jL0nMPfo
 * www.businesslive.co.za%2Fbd%2Fworld%2Fasia%2F2022-01-19-kung-fu-master-in-a-bid-to-rule-hong-kong%2F&usg=AOvVaw1CKGrjZrzh8smszVaGDJwK
 * wow-master-kung-fu-dan-produser-film-silat-sin-kwok-lam-calonkan-diri-jadi-pemimpin-hong-kong%3Fpage%3Dall&usg=AOvVaw1HFZnRZsbXvX3-HyBHx1nS
 * jateng.inews.id%2Fberita%2Fmaster-kungfu-sin-kwok-lam-umumkan-maju-di-pemilu-hong-kong&usg=AOvVaw2Rc6okGmR9KDc95UhMymQO
 * www.chinastory.cn%2Fspxqy%2Fenvideos%2F20210404%2F1012800000046191617520564042898794_1.html&usg=AOvVaw3W-UZysAG7O5wbBUSqgU0P
 * https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3881007/
 * hkmdb.com%2Fdb%2Fpeople%2Fview.mhtml%3Fid%3D41729%26display_set%3Deng&usg=AOvVaw02pdCqDxV16sjn-ijT1yPv
 * www.digital-morgue.de%2Fperson%2F20359%2Fkwok-lam-checkley-sin%2F&usg=AOvVaw0bE4QdohcLa0qX4G8GH47q
 * www.vudu.com%2Fcontent%2Fmovies%2Fdetails%2FIp-Man-The-Final-Fight%2F451744&usg=AOvVaw1J44gxZ7bnLqOVJ93_Tpi6
 * www.thestandard.com.hk%2Fsection-news%2Fsection%2F4%2F238291%2FSin-homes-in-on-lamma-%27super-jail%27&usg=AOvVaw1atoMdQkw79gMQ5jUiTXC-
 * www.straitstimes.com%2Fasia%2Feast-asia%2Fhong-kong-chief-executive-hopeful-is-not-afraid-to-shoot-from-the-hip&usg=AOvVaw0NJo_6s4QI4oxdfMV9zJzf
 * hongkongfp.com%2F2022%2F03%2F05%2Fselecting-a-new-chief-executive-delayed-and-disrupted-hong-kongs-first-election-cycle-since-beijings-overhaul-nearsits-end%2F&usg=AOvVaw2XjwsURUAb7g3jyWEnY73c
 * echo24.cz%2Fa%2FSiPNp%2Fmistr-kung-fu-chce-do-cela-hongkongu-behem-nepokoju-podporil-policii&usg=AOvVaw2eUl2Y5dvRmQyx5nCRwpOB
 * This is, by far, not a complete list. Charliestalnaker (talk) 06:11, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you please provide the best WP:THREE sources? Just skimming this list I see WP:IMDB, Douban, and The Movie DB, all of which are WP:SPS and not reliable sources. Jumpytoo Talk 17:43, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know about the WP:THREE essay but I randomly chose this citation https://sg.news.yahoo.com/sin-kwok-lam-donate-lau-kar-leung-39-035300979.html?msclkid=6a3822beab3e11ecb75791d962c57f83 and learned that Mr. Sin is Vice President of the World Wing Chun Union, made a HK$5 million (US$650,000) donation to the Lau Kar Leung Charity Foundation (which funds stuntmen's costs due to injury), and that Mr. Sin is a film director and producer. That's quite a bit of information that has nothing to do with his candidacy for head of government of Hong Kong, which is a big topic. Charliestalnaker (talk) 23:06, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge to 2022 Hong Kong Chief Executive election. Most of the person's notability is related to this election. 2601:647:5800:1A1F:4CAE:9DE2:30BC:86D9 (talk) 22:33, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Problematic because his other professional achievements and biography would be censored and banned from the election article. Charliestalnaker (talk) 01:55, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Draftify ivo Charliestalnaker's impressive list of sources, and also the current state of the article (undergoing extensive revision, so no actual content at the moment) Springnuts (talk) 08:56, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete — Fails WP:NPOL, a bunch of mere announcements, press releases, and sources which I can classify under WP:QS I don’t know how this is mainspace worthy. Furthermore WP:1E largely applies here. Celestina007 (talk) 20:12, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
 * This person has many, many citations. This person exceeds WP:1E. He is at least a 2 event person (film producer and leading presidential candidate). Even President Biden is only a 3 event man (Senator, VP, President). Some citations are from news organizations more reputable than others (like Reuters, Straits Times (of Singapore), South China Morning Post (akin to the Washington Post or more famous), etc. Just because he has some weak sources doesn't mean that all of his citations are bad. This is akin to a Presidential election and this candidate is the #2 most likely to win. That would be like deleting the Joe Biden article prior to the 2020 election! Even if he fails WP Politician, he passes as a movie producer. Both of those combined make him WP noteworthy. Charliestalnaker (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. The article was substantially expanded by after the AfD nomination, so I oppose moving to draftspace as the current article is clearly suitable for mainspace. Chinese-language and English-language sources published between 2009 and 2021 before Checkley Sin Kwok-lam announced on 19 January 2022 that he was running in the 2022 Hong Kong Chief Executive election:  The article notes: "By day Checkley Sin Kwok-lam wears a suit and tie, but by night he transforms himself into a kung fu master worthy of his hero Bruce Lee. The 49-year-old could be called a jack-of-all-trades with a career spread over banking, martial arts and movie-making. But he is certainly not a master of none."  The article notes: "Checkley Sin Kwok-lam has drawn a lot of strength from his passion for martial arts. Not only has it helped him achieve balance in his life, but it became a major factor in setting him on the path to achieving acclaim as a film producer and director. ... Little did Sin know at the time, but it would lead him to launch his own film studio and play a pivotal role as a producer on successful Ip Man movies."  The article notes from Google Translate: "The world is impermanent, even if it is a stock market that only looks at money, it is still embarrassing. Xian Guolin, known as the 'father of tax loans' in his early years, went to King Lifeng (1031) Zhu Tai (Zhu Li Yuehua) for his 60th birthday party in Jeju Island, South Korea at the beginning of the month. His left eye was infected with bacteria and he had to undergo surgery to remove it. Still recovering. ... Interested in finding Jin to lead the film 'Ip Man' series, which became an instant hit after being filmed in 2008, setting off a Wing Chun craze."  The article notes from Google Translate: "Since 2009, the "Ip Man" film series has set off a wave of kung fu movies, and Xian Guolin is an important driving force. In recent years, he has ambitiously wanted to become a film and television tycoon. In addition to spending 1.4 billion to build Xiqiao Mountain National Art Film and Television City in Guangdong, he recently threatened to invest 1.5 billion to start an online TV station in the mainland. However, the financial man in his 50s said frankly that the more he loses and the less he wins, the more he loses, the less the prospects of Hong Kong-produced films are bleak. Millions, what can Hong Kong movies do?" Only change can bring vitality." <li> The article notes from Google Translate: "In 2008, a set of 'Ip Man' movie set off a wave of Wing Chun upsurge, and also made Checkley Sin's name pop up instantly. With the success of this film, Checkley Sin had the opportunity to show his strength in the film and television industry at the same time. Over the years, he has quietly built a film and television city with full-scale buildings in Xiqiao, Foshan, which has been favored by Hollywood. He vowed to make this place the most beautiful film and television city in the world in the future."</li> <li> The column notes from Google Translate: "Everyone knows Checkley Sin, probably from the entertainment version, but it turns out that Master Xian is also a celebrity in the financial industry."</li> <li> The article notes from Google Translate: "Current affairs commentator Checkley Sin published his best-selling book "How to Treat a Severely Sick Hong Kong" last year, explaining how to make Hong Kong regain its former glory; Master Xian made persistent efforts to publish another book titled "Treatment" The new book "Hong Kong Policy" discusses recent major issues in Hong Kong on judicial reform, housing issues, land resources, education and cultural and publicity, and financial policies."</li> <li> The article notes from Google Translate: "Checkley Sin, a major shareholder of National Arts Entertainment and Culture Group (8228), a well-known financial figure in the financial industry, turned against his wife. He recently filed a petition with the High Court, saying that he had passed legal representatives to his wife Luo Baoer on July 22 and August 30 this year."</li> <li> The article notes from Google Translate: ""First Credit" (8215) is the first shot of my old friend Checkley Sin to start a business. It started from nothing and became a listed company in just a few years. Sin's business skills are evident. As a matter of fact, Sin is a "tough guy" from the red pants in the financial world. He started from the low-level of Bangkok Bank and quickly became a high-level person."</li> <li> The article notes from Google Translate: "Age: 62. Relationship with celebrities: Apprentice of Ye Zhun, son of Ye Wen, apprentice of Liu Jialiang, uncle of artist Wang Zulan. Marriage: Married, with two sons and one daughter, 19 and 17 years old respectively, the youngest daughter is 8 years old. Experience: Born in the grassroots as a child, a family of seven lived in a flat room in Xiyingpan when they were young. Worked as a clerk at Bangkok Bank in 1980"</li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li>The subject is extensively covered in HK01 based on the "冼國林" ("Checkley Sin" tag) at https://www.hk01.com/tag/5356 where his name is in many headlines.</li> </ol></li> <li>English-language sources published after Checkley Sin Kwok-lam announced on 19 January 2022 that he was running in the 2022 Hong Kong Chief Executive election:<ol> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> </ol></li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Checkley Sin Kwok-lam to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 09:46, 26 March 2022 (UTC) </li></ul> Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   08:45, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * We should not delete this article. We should improve it instead. He is a notable candidate for the 2022 Hong Kong Chief Executive election. The serious grammatical errors in the page that causes the page to be unreadable to a number of users should not be the reason for deleting the page. Deletion should not be used as a tool for the improvement of the article at this moment. This last resort should come much later, as improvements are ongoing really fast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Studious Human (talk • contribs) 07:52, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep I did the absolute minimum, searching for English-language sources using Google, excluding the term "election" and found lots of stuff, including ,,, and (some of which may be listed previously here). IMO, he meets WP:NBASIC without even considering WP:NPOL, which he may meet as well. Jacona (talk) 13:05, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. The subject seems to be notable as a film producer, although the article seems to exaggerate some of his credits. For example, he is listed here as director, storywriter, martial arts director, and publisher (?) for The Legend Is Born: Ip Man, although our article about the film and IMDb both say that Herman Yau was the film's director, with Sin only being a producer. Also, Sin being the first declared candidate for Chief Executive of Hong Kong doesn't have any particular significance, except perhaps to some Wikipedia editors who are looking for content to write about in the article about the election. Unless Sin can secure 188 nominations from the 1,500 members of the Election Committee, he will not even be eligible to run. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 00:17, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that John Lee (government official) has reportedly been tapped as the Beijing-endorsed candidate for Chief Executive, which suggests that Checkley Sin is unlikely to be a candidate in the final vote. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:45, 7 April 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.