Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cheuk Mei Mei


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The consensus is clearly against deletion, but there is no consensus whether to keep the article as it is, about Cheuk Mei Mei, or to change its focus, so that the page is specifically about her trial. Salvio giuliano 09:05, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Cheuk Mei Mei

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

As per other similar recent AfDs. Fails WP:PERP and WP:ONEVENT applies. LibStar (talk) 04:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete with the same rationale as Articles for deletion/Raymond Ko Mun Cheung. Mccapra (talk) 05:50, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:48, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep: notable for being the first foreign woman convicted of a drug offence in Singapore to be hanged — Preceding unsigned comment added by WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk • contribs) 14:49, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Crime, Hong Kong,  and Singapore.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:41, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment:As far as I knew, was going to merge these articles about individual arrests into one article about enforcement of Singapore's drug laws. Is that no longer the case? Elinruby (talk) 00:04, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Elinruby we discussed it but from seeing the comment's on these articles regarding Notability i dont want to waste time creating articles in a certain style to keep others happy and then its marked for deletion anyway WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 08:21, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok your call Elinruby (talk) 08:24, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

*Keep: notable for being the first foreign woman convicted of a drug offence in Singapore to be hanged, also legal arguments presented at trial were quite unique — Preceding unsigned comment added by WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk • contribs) 16:01, 7 February 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 10:24, 13 February 2023 (UTC) Relisting comment: Final relist Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 07:38, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * struck out duplicate !vote. LibStar (talk) 01:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * sorry thought i had a new vote 13:36, 8 February 2023 (UTC) WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 13:36, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep and rename. I feel that there could be a better improvement in the writing even though I do agree with the reasons for deletion, and the title itself should be renamed because there was less info about the early life of the criminal in general. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 07:58, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. 
 *  On WP:PERP 
 * Regarding WP:PERP, it says (bold emphasis mine) A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person. I don't see a logical existing article, so therefore the guidance tells us only to create/have such an article if they played a large role in an event that passes WP:EVENT. To satisfy that, the event would need to meet WP:GNG i.e. several reliable sources with significant coverage. South China Morning Post, The Daily Telegraph, The Straits Times covered her in 1989, 1992, 1993 and 1994. I think creating and keeping this article is supported by WP:PERP
 *  On WP:ONEVENT 
 * Regarding WP:ONEVENT, that guidance exists to help us decide if it should be a biographical article about a person, or an event article. I see this as an editing issue best resolved on the talk page, not really an AFD issue, but as it has been raised, I'll comment: I think she is notable for a series of connected events, rather than one event. 1 Smuggling. 2 Court case. 3 Execution. It's a theme of events, which is normally how people are notable, for a series of connected events. So I think it would be OK to change this into an event article, but I wouldn't advocate for that. Considering the guidance at WP:ONEVENT, she played a major role in the event, the notability of the event centres around her, as the first woman to be executed for drug smuggling.
 *  In Summary 
 * Basically, this article meets WP:GNG and I don't see any of the guidelines about biographies or crimes directing us to delete it, they could arguably guide us to make it into an event article, but I'd disagree with that while acknowledging that is open to interpretation. This seems like a clear keep. CT55555 (talk) 14:09, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep, but only as NEVENT, perhaps Arrest and execution of Cheuk Mei Mei. An article named List of people executed in Singapore would make a lot of sense. The event is well-documented by RS in the article. There's no assertion made or documented the subject would have been notable unless they were the "first woman convicted of a drug offence in Singapore to be executed." BusterD (talk) 05:19, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: If your proposed event article title itself notes there are two events, an arrest and an execution, could that be an indicator of notability for more than one event , therefore justifying a biographical article? CT55555 (talk) 05:27, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you're splitting hairs here, CT55555, and I disagree with your assessment above. This article in no way resembles a biography, even after improvement; it details an event. I'm perfectly fine with Trial of Cheuk Mei Mei, since that's where the sourcing details the subject. I'm sure Singapore was processing thousands of arrests and trials each day, but apparently not very many executions. There's no significance in the arrest or trial, but adding "Arrest and..." or "Trial and..." sounds more inclusive of the backstory, since the sources don't directly detail the execution. The only assertion of notability is the unprecedented execution event, as reflected in the presented sourcing. If she weren't executed, there'd be only routine local trial sources to utilize, and I'd be asserting delete. As a human subject, there's way insufficient sources to keep, since nothing directly details her life, just her arrest, trial, and execution, which I regard a single extended life event. For my part, I'd prefer an entry on List of people executed in Singapore. BusterD (talk) 06:17, 25 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.