Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chevy Chase Elementary School


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There is general consensus that elementary scools are generally not notable, and nobody in the discussion disputed this. It was discussed whether this particular school passes WP:GNG. Whereas a good job was done, there were no consensus if the local coverage find is sufficient for GNG. A pretty typical situation, I close this as no consensus defaulted to keep. One can retry in a couple of years and see whether consensus has been shifted.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:10, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Chevy Chase Elementary School

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An elementary school in Maryland. Elementary schools are generally not notable. Prod was deleted because, "This is the 53rd Article in the category Public elementary schools in Maryland. Multiply that by 50 US states and international locations and that to me negates the claim about elementary schools not being on wiki." This is an obvious lie as Category:Public elementary schools in Maryland lists only five, not 53 elementary schools. Two of those listed are redirects. Bgwhite (talk) 22:34, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica1000 23:16, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Maryland-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica1000 23:17, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Merge "into the school district article or the appropriate locality article" as WP:WPSCH/AG :-
 * "Articles on elementary/primary schools or middle schools will normally be merged into the locality article (such as a village or town) unless they can clearly demonstrate that they can meet the notability guideline."
 * Nothing obviously notable about this school - only refs are to the schools page on "Montgomery Schools" website and the town "Document centre". - Arjayay (talk) 09:10, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Montgomery County Public Schools, where it is already mentioned. I really wanted to keep this article, because the school is more than 100 years old (not the current buildings though). But I couldn't find the coverage needed to call it historic. --MelanieN (talk) 01:34, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep. It's not "notable" because it's an elementary school but because - as noted - it's almost a hundred years old and the building (or part of it) was the first official school of Montgomery County, Maryland.  See Chevy Chase Historical Society link.  It's not easy to find references to it, at least not with standard Google searches that turn up a lot of other "Chevy Chase" stuff, but I bet there's enough out there to get it over the basic notability hump.  JohnInDC (talk) 01:23, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The school appears also to be designated by Montgomery County the Maryland Historical Trust as an Historic Site - I haven't been able to find a textual listing but this interactive map will identify the school if you enter its address (4015 Rosemary) into the query field. Also I stumbled across the application for the designation, here.  JohnInDC (talk) 02:52, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Folks who are looking into the history of the place might want to bear in mind that for many years it was known as "Rosemary School". Some older material may refer to it that way.  Finally I think that the article tracks the Town of Chevy Chase material a bit too closely - not word-for-word, but the paraphrasing is a bit too close for my tastes, and, having noticed this, I'll take a crack at cleaning it up as soon as I have a moment.  JohnInDC (talk) 02:57, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I had a burst of energy and cleaned up the article, removing a lot of tangential stuff and using more original prose. I also found sound links for the school's designation as an historic site and added a quote about the architectural details that appear to have helped qualify it as such.  The article is now shorter, cleaner, more suitably referenced, and I think is a much clearer Keep than the earlier iteration.  JohnInDC (talk) 03:45, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 14:17, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

 *merge into either the school district article or the history of the town. It could become a stand alone article if coverage could be in memoirs or essays by notable figures (all I found was a mention in a self-published memoir by a political type whose kids went there) Or if there were sources stating that it is architecturally or historically significant. I didn't find any in a brief search, not clear, for example if an historic designation has come through.ShulMaven (talk) 20:44, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The historic designation did go through; it's listed at p 274 of this publication hosted by The Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission. JohnInDC (talk) 21:06, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

*merge I like this school! It's old, cute and has a nice history. What I can't find is significant coverage to make it notable. Historic designation from the city seems like local coverage to me. Jacona (talk) 01:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The designation was by the county, which being immediately adjacent to Washington, DC, and with a founding dating back almost 240 years, has no shortage of significant and/or historical candidate sites. Don't mistake it for parochial boosterism! JohnInDC (talk) 01:53, 2 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep It's notable as a building, if not as a school. All of the sources provide reliable and verifiable references are about the history of the building itself, meeting the notability standard as a building. Alansohn (talk) 02:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There are over a million properties on the National Register of Historic Places, 80,000 are listed individually, but this is not one of them, so is clearly not notable in national terms - Arjayay (talk) 11:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * No. Of course, national notability is not required.  The designation by the county certainly doesn't carry the same weight as a national designation, but the determination by the county that the site has historical & architectural significance (in, as I noted, a county with loads of history in it already) suggests that this is not just another elementary school, one like every other, and so why are we bothering to single it out here.  It's a hundred years old (give or take), it was the first permanent public school in what has become the 17th largest school district in the country (!), and had the first public school library in that county.  I appreciate that notability is hardly an open and shut case here but there needs to be more to the deletion side than "elementary schools are generally not notable.".  JohnInDC (talk) 12:53, 2 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Merge to district . Excellent effort improving the article's sourcing, and I'd like to see that preserved in the district article, but much of the sourcing is very local or insufficiently independent in nature. It's all very good content for the history of the district, which is considered baseline notable, but there's nothing here that notes why this school is exceptional or enough unaffiliated, significant coverage for purposes of the general notability guideline. I did a run of ProQuest and found little to bolster the case for keeping this article separate—all local coverage and passing mentions. czar ⨹   02:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment - if this is to be Merged, rather than Kept, the better destination would be Chevy Chase (town), Maryland rather than Montgomery County Public Schools. The former would more easily accommodate the existing narrative (along with perhaps a photograph one day); the latter is not much more than a list of the county's 200 schools and a two paragraph digression about one of them would be out of place.  JohnInDC (talk) 03:01, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Such a section on an elementary school would be unduly weighted in either article methinks, but sure, either is fine by me. (I think it stands a better chance of staying in the district, though.) czar ⨹   04:01, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty confident that few would object to the addition of a bit of non-statistical content to the article on Town of Chevy Chase! Also - and this came to me later - I think the school & its history are more significant to the Town, than to the School District today (where history notwithstanding the school is just one of a couple hundred schools to be administered).  Anyhow that's FWIW.  Also while I'm here I want to say that I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of the discussion, and think that this is exactly how AfD should work.  Whatever the outcome, thanks to all.  JohnInDC (talk) 16:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Keep Rethinking per arguments by JohnInDC and Alansohn. The historic designation did go through, even if local it is significant. And it means that the people of the region do not wish to "delete" the building. Plus the fact that it is "the oldest" and that there is significant local coverage of and local affection for this landmark building. Although I first voted "merge", I think articles on beloved, historic, architecturally or otherwise notable buildings serve Wikipedia better as stand-alone articles linked than as small sections in larger articles. This should be linked from the school district and from the town. And I certainly hope somebody posts an image or 2. ShulMaven (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * , where do see "the oldest"? I see a claim that it has the oldest (existing?) school library in the county... but that's it, and that's county-level. czar ⨹   22:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * . It is not the "oldest school".  According to Montgomery County Public Schools, nine other schools are older. County historic designation is not a reason for nobility.  Three of the refs come from county level government and one ref from city.  Application for designation is not a source to be used for GNG.  Not sure how four local, government refs count as "significant" coverage. Bgwhite (talk) 22:52, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know how these dates are measured but per the Chevy Chase Historical Society (link above): "In 1917, Montgomery County opened its first official school building, a two-story art-deco inspired brick structure called the Chevy Chase School (although residents fondly refer to it as the “Rosemary School”)."  JohnInDC (talk) 22:55, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The historic designation seems to be at the state level (it's a bit confusing) but I found a Maryland link and substituted that. Also, the Montgomery County Public Schools page seems to be pretty much just wrong, indicating that this school opened in 1936 when it is pretty clear from all the sources that it has been operating at the same place since 1917.  JohnInDC (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * From Montgomery Public Schools own info, it was built in 1936. From your own historical link, it too says 1936 (p.274).  In addition, there are over 10 buildings built before 1935 that were schools, but are now county or privately owned.  So, there are atleast 17 older buildings.  There may have been a previous Chevy Chase building, but the references, including the school district, say 1936.  Bgwhite (talk) 00:09, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * , The oldest, currently used as a school, was a high school built in 1892, 44 years before Chevy Chase was built. Bgwhite (talk) 00:12, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Richard Montgomery High School - founded in 1892 and, per its website, the "oldest public high school in Montgomery County", would seem to eclipse Chevy Chase Elementary as the oldest school in the county. Perhaps the Chevy Chase School is the first elementary school - dunno.  Bears examining.  Interestingly however the Richard Montgomery School has only existed in its current building at its current site since 1942, when the existing school was destroyed by fire.  A new school was constructed on a new, nearby parcel and that is where the school is now found. Link. So if the only proper measure of a school's age is "duration in a particular building in a particular spot", the indisputably older Montgomery School loses out to Chevy Chase Elementary.  JohnInDC (talk) 02:49, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Keep In agreement with ShulMaven and others. Change from Merge to Keep. Jacona (talk) 15:54, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment - I know that notability is not inherited, but for what it's worth, I've discovered that the fellow who designed the 1930 wing of the school, one Howard Wright Cutler, designed a couple of churches in DC that have found their way onto the National Register (see Lincoln Temple United Church of Christ and Eldbrooke United Methodist Church). He was also the dominant school architect for the county from the mid 1920s through mid 1940s, and this school is considered a good representation of his style.  There is, interestingly, no article on him here and so now I have a project for the weekend.  JohnInDC (talk) 22:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Having a noted architect design one section or the entire building doesn't confer notability. As the school wasn't built until 1936, how can they have a 1930 wing?
 * What two sources? Montgomery County Public Schools does not count.  Surely you aren't suggesting that the Town itself is wrong when it says the school was founded in 1917.  JohnInDC (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Montgomery County Public Schools, Motgomery planning (p.274) and application for designation says one wing in 1930 and the other wing in 1936.  The school was started in 1930 and wasn't occupied until 1936.  I assume the great depression had something to do with the delay.  Montgomery County Schools does count as a source.  When a school was built is information that can come from a reliable primary source.  See WP:PRIMARY. The school not being occupied until 1936 is a fact.  Bgwhite (talk) 00:47, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * the Town itself say a building was constructed in 1917. That was the old building.  I quote from page 37, "In 1930, a 12-classroom brick building was constructed at a cost of $94,000.  It fronted on Rosemary Street, and caused the closing of Valley Place as a through street. The southern portion of thes structure remains as part of the current east wing. With its new address, the school became affectionately - but never formally - known as 'Rosemary School'."
 * EVERY source says 1930 or afterward. NO source says 1917. Bgwhite (talk) 00:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * No. The Town of Chevy Chase source makes it clear that Chevy Chase Elementary has been on the Rosemary site since 1917.  The current buildings date to 1930-36, but the school was founded in 1917, and the 1917 and 1930 buildings existed alongside one another for 6 years.  The Town says, a school was built on the site in 1917:  "The school fronted on Valley Place, which at that time connected Rosemary Street and Meadow Lane".  Page 37 here.  Same page: "In 1930, a 12-classroom brick building was constructed....  It fronted on Rosemary Street and caused the closing of Valley Place as a through street."  This makes it clear that the 1930 building was constructed alongside the 1917 structure, on Rosemary Street.  "The southern portion of this structure remains as part of the current east wing. * * * In 1936 Chevy Chase added another brick building....  During this year, the 1917 structure was demolished."  School founded and built, 1917.  New wing built alongside in 1930.  Yet another wing built in 1936, 1917 building demolished.  This is simple and clear.  And the Town's description meshes perfectly with that of the Chevy Chase Historical Society, here, which notes the construction of the 1917 building and states that this building was referred to locally as "The Rosemary School".  Even the application pdf you cite for the school's founding in 1930 says that "During the 1920s, the Chevy Chase School at Rosemary... needed to be enlarged."  (See next to last page of text.)  It is abundantly clear that a school was founded on the Rosemary site in 1917, and has been operating continuously on that site as as school.  Perhaps the other sources are confusing the dates of the (remaining) buildings with the date of the school's founding (an application based on the architectural significance of the school would not likely waste space describing a structure that no longer exists) - perhaps not.  But there's really no disputing that Chevy Chase Elementary School, in one or another form, has been there since 1917.  JohnInDC (talk) 02:03, 5 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment - The school received a National Blue Ribbon Award in 1993-94, which - according to this AfD Keep determination anyhow - is generally considered sufficient to confer notability on an elementary school. JohnInDC (talk) 14:15, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Additional AfDs discussing "Blue Ribbon" Awards: here, here and here. JohnInDC (talk) 19:40, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The Blue Ribbon School award is a rejected rationale for an auto-keep. The award is too commonplace to constitute something creating automatic notability. Carrite (talk) 04:06, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Redirect per longstanding consensus at AfD that ordinary elementary schools are presumed non-notable. We have long ago rejected the notion that the 7,000 so-called Blue Ribbon Schools are automatically notable. This is the run of the mill honor. 04:04, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment - It's not an autokeep, but certainly does carry weight (per the selection of examples I offered) and has to be considered along with everything else that we know about the school: The school was established on this site nearly a hundred years ago; its more recent wings, dating to 1930 and 36, were designed by a prominent local architect and are regarded as exemplary of his style; the first public school library in the county was established within the school; and the school is a State Historic Site.  None of this is run of the mill and on its face takes the discussion out of the general (not hard-and-fast) rule that "elementary schools aren't notable".  JohnInDC (talk) 13:27, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I did find a few past discussions about Blue Ribbon awards and notability, with editors expressing various views on whether it is sufficient by itself to confer notability. It seems to be an open issue, though not a hot topic lately.  In any event pretty much all agree that it's a significant award, not merely routine or insignificant.  E.g. here, here.  JohnInDC (talk) 13:44, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep. I added a quote from Chevy Chase Historical Society coverage to the article, using a source that is mentioned above but was not yet in article.  It seems to clearly meet wp:GNG based on sources included in article or in this AFD discussion.  There's a lot of factual info to add from historic site nomination form provided by a commentator above, and perhaps there will be sources related to Howard Wright Cutler that may be found in the future.  I also think the Blue Ribbon schools award counts for something, while more importantly for the AFD, a local historic site listing can be sufficient on its own to establish Wikipedia-notability, IMO.  As an alternative better than deleting, this could conceivably be moved/redirected to a new list of local historic sites, e.g. a "List of local historical sites in Chevy Chase" or in Montgomery County"  But even if such a list existed, there's more specific coverage of this so it is justified to keep it split out.  It is best to simply Keep, based on GNG being met.   do  ncr  am  02:21, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * See article about architect Howard Wright Cutler. I already voted to keep, but when I did the keep argument seemed borderline.  It is much stronger now in several ways, but, when it comes to architects, notability truly can be inherited, in the sense that being designed by a notable architect adds to the notability of every building he designed, sometimes it is enough all by itself to make an otherwise unremarkable building notable.  But in this case, I think that the identificaiton of the architect puts this article clearly into the column marked: obvious keep.ShulMaven (talk) 19:50, 9 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete Elementary schools are generally not notable. Could not find many sources to add to article either. StewdioMACK (talk) 16:40, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep That elementary schools are not commonly kept at AfDs does not in itself disqualify every elementary school which appears at AfD. On the merits, I think this page is in far better shape than when it was prodded and nommed for AfD. IMHO the CCHS reference clearly establishes lengthy history and directly details the subject. The application for designation as an historical site establishes the notable architect connection, again directly detailing. That the application was accepted and the building so designated validates statements in the application. So we have an historical building by a notable architect. And then we have an almost 100 year-old scholastic community continuously associated with the building. These days that's a long time for a primary school. We have a verified claim this school hosted the first school library in Montgomery County. Then we have the additional Blue Ribbon designation, which by itself would mean nothing but adds additional direct detail to pagespace. This article now meets GNG; in detail and sourcing this article far surpasses the vast majority of high school articles which are commonly kept merely because of common practice, IMHO. BusterD (talk) 02:49, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.