Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chido Govero


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. In this debate, it seems as though the people who expressed an opinion to delete had much more solid arguments than those who expressed an opinion to keep. As such, I am deleting this article. ( X! ·  talk )  · @746  · 16:53, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Chido Govero

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

A young woman doing various things re sustainability. Blatant COI - Gunter Pauli is founder of ZERI who sponsor Chido. No evidence of notability. &mdash; RHaworth 21:55, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete: few third-party reliable sources. "www.example.com" is not a source, may I add, who are you playing? --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 00:38, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment  - This article is important and will stay:
 * Interesting persons making comments. Chido has been sponsored for her activities for years while she was a minor by ZERI. What else do you expect? Ever since she was 18 she has been getting support for trainings from Foundations, as is mentioned. Today her list of sponsors is zero, she is self-sufficient. She earns her own money. I wish you all could say the same at the age of 23 coming from life as an orphan. See the video link and the newspaper article that have been added, as well as the award from SCAA, the reference provided by YES. Take time before you shoot.


 * So how many references are needed before one has notoriety for the Americans or notability for the Brits? Chido turns down invitations for press or invitations for international lectures because if you are Zimbabwean and want to live and work in Zim then you are low key. She is dedicated to provide a livelihood for girls in Africa in a way that in my 35 years of work in the third world I have not seen. And this strange question ... "who are you playing?" Wake up young man in Australia obviously you have not been to Africa and lived the abuse of orphans, nor the plight of AIDS-patients.


 * Suggest you earn your way to Africa and see the real life that millions face, not the luxury that few can enjoy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunter pauli (talk • contribs) 01:15, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Re: Your WP:TRUTH needs a SOURCE. That is Wikipedia policy. Your article reads like an advocacy through the language it uses (WP:NOT, WP:NPOV), and there is also a possible conflict of interest, which is prohibited on Wikipedia. And throwing personal attacks around won't really help with your argument to keep. I also believe that your argument for the children is irrelevant in this AfD discussion, as it is a fallacy of relevance based on appeal to emotion, and does not relate to any reasoning regarding article deletion or Wikipedia policy. I understand that you feel that the plight of this particular individual may be significant, however Wikipedia policy states that notability must be proven with sources that are verifiable and independent; this is to avoid things like original reseach and synthesis, to which editors may invent their own information without any exterior referencing. If you are unable to provide thorough, reliable and detailed references, then I am afraid the article does not belong on Wikipedia, no matter how significant the subject may be. All in all, this is an online encyclopedia; if you would like to publish your own synthesis on the subject, by all means feel free to find a web host, or contact a humanitarian agency website for publishing approval, as this would be a more suitable choice than Wikipedia. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 01:20, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. Gunter Pauli already has his own website and Chido is already fully covered there. &mdash; RHaworth 23:07, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Your WP:TRUTH needs a SOURCE. So reading your text it means A source (one). You find several verifiable sources: organizers of the 2006 event in Kenya, US-based newspapers, the largest coffee organization in the US, Kufunda Village in Zimbabwe hosting Chido ... . And others. There is no appeal to emotion: facts may stimulate emotions since these are hard to face for people not used to face facts of life in cultures or continents they have never been. If one were to appeal to emotions it would be written quite differently. So your suggestion that I - editor - invent my own information seems farfetched if one would have bothered to check the sources. Your final line on a humanitarian agency website demonstrates that my English is poor ... read for yourself Chido is not in need anymore of humanitarian aid. I will have to rewrite it and make that more blunt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunter pauli (talk • contribs)
 * Comment - So would you mind stating how many external sources are needed?:
 * Comment - It's not up to us to find the sources - that's your job. I'm sure that in the seven days it usually takes to go through one of these discussions you can find AND ADD some. Not blogs, not anything that can be user edited, not forums, not press releases, and not your official site. (the last one can be put in, but it doesn't count as a reference. Take a tip from me - don't get all het up. We are trying to help you. Do remember that this a place with rules and procedures, designed to keep out the utter trash that gets posted. Your article looks very worthy - but it must fit the standards set. Keep calm, ask questions, and listen to our answers. Don't worry about the quality of your English - I can always sort that out later. Peridon (talk) 20:58, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Echoing WP:BURDEN. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 02:28, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment 2 - Please sign your remarks here by typing four ~ things at the end. That signs the remark so we know who, and where the end is. Peridon (talk) 21:00, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment 3 - There are six independent references offered in the article. Is this not enough? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunter pauli (talk • contribs)


 * Comment 4 - The website is NOT Gunter Pauli's website, it is the website of the ZERI Foundation of which I am a director, and which was established with co-financing of the United Nations. So it would be appreciated that there is no confusion between a person and a legal entity. I am surprised that people who are supervising the editing seem to "shoot from the hip" without going through the details. The information of Chido will be removed soon since we are offering continuously new insights on the activities of the Foundation. Pauli —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunter pauli (talk • contribs) 19:02, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Please do use the 4 tildes to sign. Refs: No 3 BTTR mentione mushrooms but not Chido. No 1 is Zeri and not separate from the subject. Link No 2 (africau.edu) doesn't work for me. YES campaign is example.com. Kufunda - yes, that looks OK to me. Women supporting women is example.com. The Wal-Mart one is a mention, but a help. The San Jose one looks good, but I suspect it of being editable or self-publish. That's one and a bit for me, out of seven. (I discount the Press Release one - on the grounds of press releases merely establishing existence.) Please read my post above again and note that I am trying to help you, seemingly against your wishes. Peridon (talk) 19:26, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment 5: Added more references from the Netherlands (in Dutch) and from Zimbabwe. User talk:Pauli —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunter pauli (talk • contribs) 21:00, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Clarification Comments 1 and 2 were labelled to distinguish two close comments by me. You don't have to keep up the numbering. Once again, please use four tildes to sign posts, like this: Peridon (talk) 21:25, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment The Zimbabwe mail looks good. Not too sure about Ode - it looks as if it uses sent-in material. Can't really be sure from the legalese. Peridon (talk) 21:32, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep hoping for more reliable references... Looks just about OK to me, but could do with a bit more just in case. Peridon (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Pauli —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunter pauli (talk • contribs) 03:11, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - Added another reference from the project Chido directed in Tanzania with Sustainable Harvest. Yes another independent source.


 * Comment' - Here is a better reference link for the article republished later in sanjose.com --> it is written by journalist Stett Holbrook, a freelancer based in the San Francisco, Ca region - he's widely published, including NYTimes. Metro is a regional print-version newspaper:  http://www.metrosiliconvalley.com/metro/08.12.09/feed-0932.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelStraus (talk • contribs) 06:34, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Timotheus Canens (talk) 00:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Conclusion? There are now independent additional sources from Colombia (in Spanish confirming her trainings in Colombia), USA, and the BTTR Ventures which in their present format of website does not mention Chido, does mention in their press release that Chido was indeed their source. Then Fast Company, the monthly magazine in interview with BTTR VEnture founders indicates the same. The Sustainable Harvest confirms the action in Tanzania. Then CAOS highlights (in Dutch) their dedication to further train girls in Zimbabwe through Chido. Finally the Just Children Foundation also relates to the trainings Chido is doing. Would you agree that this is solid enough? I do not yet have the ability to improve the format as requested, but believe that comparing with other articles and biographies, I do see that the question of notoriety has been responded to. If not, let me know but then will point out many entries that not even come close to the number of references and sources provided in this one. Thank you for the challenge! Gunter pauli —Preceding undated comment added 11:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC).
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Delete She is doing noble work, no doubt, but I don't see substantial coverage in reliable independent sources. The content is more suited to her organization's website. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 *  Keep - This is not about Jambo Juice or wheat grass, this is about the real world where people make a real difference. The coverage -according to ChildofMidnight- is not substantial. I am sorry, are you sipping wheat grass and have you taken the time to have a serious look at the independent sources from US (or is Fast Company not independent), with organizations from the Netherlands, USA, Colombia confirming separately the initiatives, the value and the contributions at an early age. I really have difficulty with this approach. Wiki-guys do not seem to have a clear definition of independent sources because if the 18 sources are all shot down by saying I DO NOT SEE. Chido has no organization's website. She is focused on the real work and not on paying web masters to set up pages for her in a foreign country. That is why she deserves to be in Wikipedia. Do not forget that she lives in Zimbabwe, not in LA or Jakarta. Gunter pauli  —Preceding undated comment added 03:24, 10 January 2010 (UTC).


 * Delete – Individual lacks substantial coverage to support article.  Notability is not established and references do not meet criteria.   ttonyb  (talk) 05:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment I'm sticking to my Keep, but I really am having difficulties with Mr Pauli, who is not helping the case for this article because of his (to my mind) aggressive approach of telling us how we should run the place. I agree with him, however, that a lower level of expectation for independent sources should apply than if the subject were in, as he says, LA or Jakarta. Countries like Zimbabwe and Somalia have limited internet access, and the press tends to keep away if possible. I've seen enough to convince me now. If this article is deleted, I would suggest that possibly ZERI might merit an article - written in a neutral style, of course, with a section about Chido. Peridon (talk) 12:18, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment – Peridon, I certainly understand what you are saying; however, the support I see is primarily pointed at the coffee product and only minimally at her. The majority (and substance) of the article is not supported by any references and Gunter pauli appears to expect Wikipedia to take his word for the accomplishments.  I agree that she appears to be "real-world" notable, but the article appears to lack Wikipedia notability.
 * Incidentally, I looked at the GHit and GNEWS support for Zena and there may be an issue there as well. My "two-second" review showed there are a lot of GHIts, but they may lack substance.   ttonyb  (talk) 16:45, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Gentlemen, my apologies if I have offended, but could you kindly see what comment was shot at this article and quote BLATANT COI unquote. With all due respect not knowing the culture of Wiki this seems to me as an aggression without looking deeper. I appreciate that considerations are made about the fact that if you live and work in Zimbabwe, just getting a visa to travel overseas is a nightmare, just getting food and electricity is a challenge. The media in Zimbabwe: you shy away from it.


 * We have over 14 years of history working on food security in Africa and Latin America, and worked with thousands. Her contribution is beyond self-development: an export crop in disarray is relaunched and converted into the basis for food security. There are thousands benefiting and hundreds already imitating, she moved from someone rescued by aid, to grow into a pro-active agent of change earning money and investing in social and economic development, not just in Zimbabwe. Gunter pauli  —Preceding undated comment added 13:30, 10 January 2010 (UTC).


 * Comment – Gunter pauli, the reason there is a COI associated with the article is your association with the subject of the article.  It is posted there to advise the reader that, "A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject".  We also understand that she is probably a great person that has contributed greatly to eradicate hunger, but without independent, verifiable, support, it is hard to support this article for inclusion.  ttonyb  (talk) 16:45, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 *  Keep While there is some 'marketing speak' on the page that could be modified, this is a legitimate entry, for instance Chido Govero was a keynote speaker at a conference/exhibition (Green Festival) attended by thousands of people in Denver in 2009. --Davidwfox (talk) 19:05, 10 January 2010 (UTC)  — Davidwfox (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment – How does this meet any of the criteria in WP:BIO?  ttonyb  (talk) 19:07, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete due to lack of substantial coverage in reliable independent sources. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  19:59, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Of course keepComment- since there are no reliable sources in Zimbabwe, all information gathered comes from the initiatives overseas. There are many and the interpretation that there is a lack of substantial coverage in reliable independent sources demonstrates that Andrew did not take time to check those available. It would be appreciated if Andrew is constructive like Peridon, when indicating which source was not reliable, it was replaced by other and as such a full back-up on each of the points by third parties was construed.  Gunter pauli  —Preceding undated comment added 01:38, 11 January 2010 (UTC).
 * Comment – I have reviewed the references and I agree with Andrew Lenahan, the article lacks substantial coverage. I can assure you I read them all and others not included in the article.   ttonyb  (talk) 02:02, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment It is interesting that the tally last week was 3 for delete - 3 to keep, but 2 who voted against, switched to vote in favor! I However, their vote against still counted? To my great regret I have come face to face with the opinions expressed by two individuals (ONLY TWO) on "substantial coverage" (earlier called notoriety) and unfortunately arrived at to the conclusion that Western male views are out of touch with the reality in Africa, especially in a country like Zimbabwe. If you are a writer or an artist in the US, UK or Australia it is easy to build "notoriety" and "substantial coverage". It is so easy. You do not even have to leave your bedroom to do achieve that. If you are a women in Zimbabwe, where the political regime obliges you to operate diligently and carefully, where electricity is not even available, then one realizes what a challenge it is to break out of the mould and take care of yourself and your fellow citizens, then you realize the difference a person makes in the livelihoods of others changing the developmental model that shifts away from aid to a business concept that actually works and is proven to work. Are you aware that journalists are not permitted to enter the country without a special government visa? As long as you measure notoriety and substantial coverage for someone in the US the same way as you measure in Zimbabwe, then wiki will be a biased representation, sorry for my male Western-education colleagues. Goodbye. Gunter pauli
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.