Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chinese Bamboo Torture


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was keep provided the article is cleaned up soon. Moved to Bamboo torture. Sandstein (talk) 07:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Chinese Bamboo Torture

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Unsourced article about a method of torture. No sources whatsoever&mdash; arf! 06:22, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep but perhaps refactor into something like Bamboo in torture ("Chinese" is gratuitous, bamboo occurs throughout Asia) as the literature indicates quite a few ... creative uses, most of them variations on common tortures such as suspension, racking, fingernail insertion, and of course corporal punishments often meted out under law. This particular one may be an urban legend but is minorly notable through citation by e.g. Annie Dillard in Pilgrim at Tinker Creek. This may be notable for use in movies, too, but I haven't confirmed that yet. --Dhartung | Talk 08:50, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There's a mention without explanation of "green bamboo torture" in a 1958 Alistair MacLean novel &mdash; but that typifies the problem with this subject. There are a scattering of anecdotal and even fictional mentions of people being subject to "bamboo torture", whilst there is almost nothing to say what it actually is, in fiction or in fact.  Interestingly, the "bamboo torture" discussed on pages 151 et seq. of ISBN 0521571650 is nothing at all like what this article describes, and the author moreover casts doubt upon stories of torture for which he has no coroborrating evidence. Uncle G 00:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Soft Keep Indeed, it is an unsourced article, and not a terribly encyclopedic one either. But I've personally heard of this practice and from the discussion page others have as well.  Even though I'm not going to believe this is a real form of torture until I see a good reference, I believe it is at least a well established urban legend.  Enough of one that if it's deleted it may very well be recreated in the same form or poorer.  People may very well come to WP seeking to learn about this practice.  The article states that it's unreferenced and that the factual accuracy is questioned, perhaps that's enough.  Still personally, if it leaves, I won't be sad to see it go. -Verdatum 10:33, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Verdatum: Looking up slightly obscure stuff like that is exactly what an encyclopedia is for. --Arcanios 12:09, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The point that you aren't addressing is verifiability. How can readers check that the article is accurate? Uncle G 00:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep per Vandatum. Twenty Years 15:50, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Delete(Added:Could not find the method described in the article in the usual refs such as Google book search. ) The form of the torture described in the article seems ludicrous: torturers are usually too impatient to wait for a plant to grow up and stick a person. More commonly heard of is bamboo slivers driven under the fingernails. Google book searce shows 5 books which describe or discuss this form of torture . I refer to Feinberg (1973),  Adhe  (1999), Dowlen (2001), Sears (2005), and Siebert (1996). I was not able to read the entire context, just to note that the concept appears in and is discussed in these works. It is also discussed in fiction, which is a less compelling reason for keeping the article because people seem to be down on "popular culture." Google news archive shows the majority of mentions to be as often humorous comparisons to enduring a bad concert. Some referred to it as a Japanese torture or North Korean torture, claiming it as a real world event. Thus sources exist which could be used to reference and improve the article, and it is not original research. The sources found suggest a move to "Bamboo torture" since other Asian countries are accused of doing it. Edison 21:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Indeed, I was thinking about a move like that myself. My concern was it is rarely described as such.  There is nearly always some country or another before the term.  So I dont know if that would be considered inventing a term for the sake of NPOV or what.  Still, as is reflected in the discussion page, naming one country or another can be considered offensive, and I'd say reasonably so. -Verdatum 21:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Note that the article as written makes no mention of fingernails, and indeed describes a wholly different method of torture. As I noted above, there are things known as bamboo torture, but they aren't what the article describes.  Also note that we already have an article on the "bamboo fingernail torture" method described by Feinberg et al., at denailing. Uncle G 00:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment The article about ripping off fingernails which UncleG mentions does not seem to have much to do with bamboo in the process except for one episode of "Lost" which is mentioned. It was never clear that the removal of the nails was the object of forcing a bamboo sliver under them. Google book search reveals several books about Chinese 19th century judicial torture involving bamboo, but I did not find the method described in this article. There were numerous accounts of bamboo being used to beat prisoners, to crush fingers or ankles, to restrain, or to suspend. Chapter 15 of is a gruesome example. There could be an article with references about "Traditional Chinese torture" Edison 01:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak keep and cleanup per existence of reliable sources.-h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 12:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.