Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chinese bakery


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. I will rename as Chinese bakey products DGG (talk) 00:34, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Chinese bakery

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

I proded this, tag was removed. At the moment I can not see any way to save this entirely unsourced article. While yes, there are bakeries in China (and among overseas chinese communities) that make distinctively chinese baked goods, that's a pretty low, indiscriminate bar for an encyclopedia article. There's no coverage at all that i can find about the topic of "chinese bakeries" (unlike, say, the vast literature on french boulangeries, which are so culturally important in france THEY might deserve an encyclopedia article... but i digress). There is some original research about the "two types" of chinese bakery (having lived in southeast asia for many years, however, i know that chinese communities have locally-influenced baked goods in almost as many countries as there are in the area -- not to mention regional variations within china) in the article. Beyond that, it's a link farm to largely unsourced stubs of the type "Banana Roll -- Banana roll is a common Chinese pastry found in Hong Kong." So fails notability, verifiability, wikipedia is not a directory or a dictionary, and generally no sources after an article has been around for 3 years is an indication there aren't any forthcoming. Bali ultimate (talk) 18:10, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete per all mentioned above. T-95 (talk) 21:31, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions.  —Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions.  —Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:06, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep, sources can be back up with time and the subject is notable in my opinion. If you look around articles of notable dishes or cookery, you will those are completely unsourced for a long time. Among Chinese bakery, egg tart is a very notable pastry at least in East Asia. I think the subject encompassing Chinese bakery deserves its article.--Caspian blue 22:18, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep The article does describe a distinct type of bakery, so called in my hometown of Montreal, as well. True we don't have a French bakery article, but we do have Parisian café and I believe this is as distinct and notable. The article could easily be supplemented with more refs referring to Chinese bakery as a distinct type of business, such as the one I posted above. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added two ELs from (coincidentally) Canada on Chinese bakeries.Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep We have categories Category:Chinese breads and Category:Chinese dessert but no list for either. From what I'm reading, this is an article about Chinese baked goods rather than the places where they are produced, and maybe the title should be moved to fit that.  Of course, whatever "List of" might mean in Chinese, it's Wikipedian for "nominate this", so perhaps the L-word should be left out. Mandsford (talk) 22:58, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply I very much saw it as an article about a particular type of establishment. But I suppose a case could be made for renaming as a List of Chinese baked goods? Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * cmt "List of chinese baked goods" would have a hope of survival and verification. So i would support "renaming" and stripping out the OR about "two kinds" of "Chinese bakery" which is silly. all this said though, why does one want a list of chinese baked goods at all? Bali ultimate (talk) 23:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * For the same reason as the other articles in Category:Lists of foods? Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename to List of Chinese pastries and re-tool the article to reflect the title. While personally I do think Chinese bakeries are unique, there lacks reliable sources to make an article out of the subject.  WP is not in the business of publishing original research, and I think this is just one of those subjects for which it seems like there should be an article, but in reality there's not any reliable sources that can be found.  HOWEVER, having said that, we can probably create articles for particularly notable chains of Chinese bakeries, like for example, Maxim's.  Chinese WP has a category for bakeries in Hong Kong - but note that Chinese WP generally has a lower threshold than English WP for what is notable.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 02:32, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Questions Are there any major franchises of bakeries that only sell the type of food mentioned? How common are these places?  Is it like having an article for hamburger restaurants, showing how popular there are in various countries, how big the major burger franchises are, history of them, etc?  This does simply appear to be a list of food.  Is there a history of how these types of bakeries came into existence, when certain things were introduced and how, etc?  Are they just as popular now as they were before greater contact with other nations, allowed us to introduce other food products instead?    D r e a m Focus  03:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * To answer your question - yes, there are major franchises/chains of bakeries that mostly sell this type of food. There's a category on Chinese WP just for the Hong Kong-based establishments - zh:分类:香港餅店.  But note that Chinese WP does not have an article on Chinese bakeries in general, like the one being discussed here.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:23, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Sounds like a suitable topic for an article. Chinese bakeries certainly exist, and I'm confident sources can be found. -- Noroton (talk) 04:21, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Evidently notable. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Food consumed by multiple countries are notable enough. Benjwong (talk) 05:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Chinese bakeries clearly exist and they are discussed widely. Vartanza (talk) 07:10, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Could the four "keeps" above provide the sources that elude everyone else that support "is notable enough" "sounds like a suitable topic... confident sources can be found" and "they are discussed widely." There are no sources to support any of these assertions that you've all made that i'm aware of (would particularly like backing from the one who writes "they are discussed widely" since if he/she were right, sources would be easy to find).Bali ultimate (talk) 13:33, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I voted to rename and retool to List of Chinese pastries, but I also happen to believe the subject is notable. My vote, however, rests upon the fact that there aren't many, if any at all, reliable sources to be found about the subject for an article on WP.  Having said that, I think some of the people who voted to keep have mistaken the article to be one about Chinese pastries, whereas the article is actually about the Chinese bakeries themselves, as in the businesses that serve and sell Chinese pastries.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * cmt i support the proposed rename as "List of Chinese pastries" which is at least categorizable and specific. Where you and i disagree is how one would define chinese bakery beyond "bakeries with largely chinese/overseas-chinese clientele where some or most of the pastries are "distinctively chinese" in nature." In the end, that's just a broad definition. Again, this is one case where i think a list is preferable.Bali ultimate (talk) 15:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think defining a Chinese bakery would be an issue if we can get the article renamed and retooled to a list of Chinese pastries - there would be no need to do that. But even if that becomes an issue, in my opinion, it is only a matter of wordsmithing a description/definition.  Chinese bakeries as bakeries that are unique apart from their Western counterparts obviously exist.  It's only a matter of how to describe them in words - but this is exactly the kind of problem that is indicative of a subject matter that lacks reliable sources.  At any rate, I think this AfD is probably heading to a decision of "keep".  If you still want to pursue the matter, you could start an article move request to rename and retool the article as a list of Chinese pastries.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:33, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.