Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chocolate Biscuit pudding


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. (non-admin closure) LlamaAl (talk) 00:55, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Chocolate Biscuit pudding

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Wikipedia is not a recipe book. Non-notable, all the hits I get are other recipes. TheLongTone (talk) 09:36, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete and move to the Wikimedia Cookbook //Gbern3 (talk) 10:09, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I feel that chocolate biscuit pudding is a very important part of the Sri Lankan dessert world, and as such is certainly deserving of inclusion. Foods, specially local foods, have a powerful significance to people who grew up around them, and as an open encyclopedia Wikipedia should maintain articles of such importance. Sri Lanka may be a small country, but surely our cuisine is a worthwhile piece of world culture. If you believe CBP is not notable, please ask any Sri Lankan - they will set you straight.
 * And after going through Wikipedia's list of puddings, I find absolutely no difference between this article and most of the other pudding articles, and have to conclude that CBP is being rather unfairly picked on. Dear editor, the proof is in the pudding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.48.255.23 (talk) 18:04, 18 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak keep. I do find a few items in reliable sources that are consistent with the multitude of blogs and other non-reliable references that identify this as an iconic Sri Lankan dessert. For example an article in the Daily News of Colombo describing how chocolate biscuit pudding has replaced watalappam as the available dessert in ready-made shops and a recent restaurant review in the same paper noting a particularly good version of this "ubiquitous desert  [sic]" at one of the city's best restaurants, where it is the only dessert served..  With due consideration for avoiding systemic bias (see WP:WORLDVIEW) I lean toward keeping this. --Arxiloxos (talk) 20:40, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 18:13, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sri Lanka-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 18:13, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Automatic Strikeout  ( T  •  C ) 00:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep The topic is discussed in sources such as The postcolonial identity of Sri Lankan English.  The real absurdity here is that chocolate biscuit is just a redirect to a particular variety.  There's a lot more to be said about that larger topic, I'm sure, and the usage in Sri Lanka would form a good part of that.  Per WP:PRESERVE, we should therefore keep this promising material. Warden (talk) 14:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If there is a reaonable claim for notability & this can be more than a recipe, I withdraw the nomination.TheLongTone (talk) 16:08, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree that the article needs to be more than a recipe. The fact that the article only describes how to make the pudding and says nothing about its history or importance in Sri Lankan culture was why I suggested it be moved to the Cookbook. There are other well written articles about food from around the world such as falafel from the middle east, béarnaise sauce from France, and frog cake from Australia. The difference is those articles go beyond just listing a recipe. If something can be written about the history or cultural impact of chocolate biscuit pudding then I will change my delete to keep. If not, I still stand with moving it to the Cookbook or WP:USERFY(ing) it until it looks like an actual article and not simply a recipe. //Gbern3 (talk) 09:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Two editors have already produced sources above that show that something can be written about the history or cultural impact of chocolate biscuit pudding. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:19, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No they haven't. The two sources identified by are behind a paywall and since talk of chocolate biscuit pudding isn't shown in the previews of either article, it's hard to say if they're actually helpful based on those views. The full text versions located on the Daily News official website show that they aren't helpful. The first article Arxiloxos linked to, The decline of watalappam cast chocolate biscuit pudding in a rather negative light. I put the word in bold font for easy identification:
 * "Watalappam in even more difficult to find ready-made in shops, where its place has been usurped by a ghastly, ultra-sweet and barely edible concoction called ‘chocolate biscuit pudding’ - sold in plastic packs similar to those in which the divine dessert is delivered. Even when it can be located, the watalappam is of inferior quality. For economy’s sake, the traditional ingredients are substituted for - sugar for jaggery, condensed milk for coconut milk and inappropriate artificial flavouring for spices. The result is barely distinguishable from chocolate biscuit pudding... We need to take stock of our cultural policy, which is obviously failing in the face of the onslaught of consumerist values. We need say ‘no’ to the cheap, the tasteless and the mundane. We must recreate in the 21st century what the 20th century greats did for architecture, art, dance, music, drama and literature. We need more people like Chef Pabilis Silva to demonstrate the possibility of overcoming a crass market culture and adding the flavour to our lives. It is time to reclaim our roots and to begin the climb back up to the cultural heights, from chocolate biscuit pudding to authentic watalappam.
 * This article cast the dish as—for lack of a better word—a fraudulent representation of a true Sri Lanka dessert which, according to this article, is watalappam. I doubt this is the kind of source that contrarians to this AfD are looking for, but if you insist this is the kind of source to use to demonstrate chocolate biscuit pudding's cultural impact (as a artificial non-native substitute), be my guest. The second article Arxiloxos linked to was MoC celebrates the Big One. There is one mention of chocolate biscuit pudding: "The other stand out items being the Chocolate Biscuit Pudding, the only dessert on the menu, which uses dark Belgian Chocolate to elevate this ubiquitous desert, and the Iced Tea Soda, an all-natural preservative free alternative to traditional soft drinks, which is unique to Ministry of Crab." From this sentence, the only thing we learned is that the Ministry of Crab restaurant in Colombo uses dark Belgian Chocolate in their chocolate biscuit pudding recipe. This is hardly a good source for the history or cultural impact. Concerning the third source that found, The postcolonial identity of Sri Lankan English, according to Google Books, there is only one mention of chocolate biscuit pudding in the text. From what I can tell from the preview, this mention describes how it's made and not why the dish is important or its history. On a side note, there is no mention of the dish in this Sri Lankan cookbook which was published by an Australian company in 2003. If the dish is so important in the fabric of Sri Lankan society and enjoyed and appreciated by the people it should be in that recipe book or at least be cast in a positive light in the article "The decline of watalappam"... but it's not. So I will reiterate my previous statement: until this looks like an actual article and not simply a recipe, I still stand with moving it to the Cookbook or WP:USERFY(ing) it. //Gbern3 (talk) 17:35, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The article that you quote extensively is precisely the kind of source that demonstrates notability. Why do you doubt that? There is no requirement that sources should present a subject in a positive light. And the second source that you quote says something much more important than that this pudding is served in a particular restaurant: it says that it is ubiquitous. Phil Bridger (talk) 07:51, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Like I said earlier, if editors who want to keep this article wish to use the source to show that CBP is well, a fake, then be my guest. I just feel that if you’re going to cite a source that says CBP is basically a culinary representation of the philistinism of the food industry, that should also be in the article. Taking Axileros' quote at face value, no reader would ever gauge that. I didn't until I went and read the full text. About the other source:
 * Considering I’m not from Sri Lanka, have never been there, and never tried any of their food, if CBP is ubiquitous then why can’t we find the recipe in The Food of Sri Lanka cookbook, Simply Sri Lankan cookbook, or the other cookbook I linked to earlier. To be fair, there are several results on Google (web search, not books) for the recipe to CBP but if it's so popular why isn't there one mention of CBP in Sri Lankan cuisine (or in the rest of the article). Again I’m not from there so I could be totally wrong about it not being ubiquitous, but the basis of this debate is not that we can't find the recipe. We certaintly can. The problem is that we can't find more than a recipe which is why nominated it for deletion. BREAK I want to reiterate here that if editors want to use the chocolate-biscuit-pudding-is-a-fradulent-Sri-Lankan-misrepresentation source to demonstrate notability go ahead. I was under the impression, this is not what contrarians are looking for but I could be wrong about that too. Now back to the topic BREAK. Maybe the fact that I can’t find information about its history is a result of systemic bias. In this regard, I can understand Arxiloxos’ point-of-view. However, I still don’t feel compelled to change my vote to keep when we have a sufficiently sourced article on falafel which comes from Egypt and another stub-class article with more sources about tavuk göğsü which comes from Turkey. My point is, all articles are judged against the same criteria and CBP is not meeting the standard. //Gbern3 (talk) 05:33, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak keep per above discussion. We have kept lots of food articles -- see the whole category.  If somebody could find a good source that shows how popular the dessert is in Sri Lanka, then it should be kept. Bearian (talk) 00:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.