Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chodaczkow Wielki massacre


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. It would seem that the article has been moved to Velykyi Khodachkiv. It would be innapropriate to act on it now that it has changed significantly. As a side note, editors referring to others in respect to their nationality aren't helping there point and are only serving to make their votes seem like POVish rambling. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 22:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Chodaczkow Wielki massacre

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

The article does not have a single reliable source to support its existence, after several months. The article's creator himself supports its deletion for this specific reason (see the talk page here for his agreement: and here for the preceding discussion: ). The article's continued existence has served as a magnet, prompting some editors to try to add information based on unreliable sources. The discussion of this is here:. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faustian (talk • contribs)
 * Delete, for the above reasons. People deserve a barnstar for at least trying, if you ask me, and I gotta give it to the article's creator for being a good sport about it on the talk page. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 04:06, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: 8 sources have been added. But Faustian removed it. 1. Szczepański and Siekierka book where u can find exact number of victims, based on recoletions 2. Stanisław Żurek book, 3. Prus (SS-Galizien. Patrioci czy zbrodniarze?) and Korman (A.Korman - "Nieukarane zbrodnie SS-Galizien z lat 1943-1945" - Londyn 1989.) books, 4. Page source, 5. Page source (number of victims), 6. Czesław E. Blicharski Chyba ten eufemizm "działalność rewolucyjna" pokrywa zbrodnie ludobójstwa, dokonane przez "rewolucjonistów" w takich miejscowościach jak np. Chodaczków Wielki z 862 zamordowanymi, 7. 7 -  Utworzona na wiosnę 1943 roku z zamieszkujących dawne polskie Kresy Wschodnie ukraińskich ochotników jednostka 14 Dywizja Grenadierów SS wsławiła się głównie polowaniem na partyzantów na Lubelszczyźnie i licznymi masakrami ludności cywilnej. Najbardziej znane z nich to mord dokonany na 868 Polakach w lutym 1944 roku w Hucie Pieniackiej i' masakra w Chodaczkowie Wielkim, gdzie zginęły 862 osoby. 8. 8 In Chodaczkow Wielki SS "Galizien" mourdered 862 osoby.--Paweł5586 (talk) 07:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The editor above is one of the ones adding all the information from unreliable sources. Please see article's discussion pages.Faustian (talk) 15:06, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose deletion. Has wikipedia really fallen so low that now even articles about mass massacres of civilians are deleted!??! Loosmark (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Only if reliable sources can't be found to support the allegations. Now if Poeticbent adds his vote (I am abstaining because I think involved editors shouldn't be voting here, right?) all three people adding unreliable Polish nationalist info will be represented here.Faustian (talk) 16:39, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * U didnt read this book, how can you say its is untrue. You are Ukrainian and you want to whitewashing the roles of SS-Galizien in massacres of Poles.--Paweł5586 (talk) 18:17, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Please refrain from personal attacks.Faustian (talk) 22:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I've not added any info to that article therefore it's not clear what are you talking about. Loosmark (talk) 16:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. First of all, we should discuss the sources presented in the article, and then we will determine if they are reliable. Therefore, I suggest moving our exchange there, and I hope we will achieve some understanding and work out a solution. Tymek (talk) 18:46, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we've done that. Please review.Faustian (talk) 22:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Faustian is troublemaker, he denied my published source but used webpage source and have been warned by admin--Paweł5586 (talk) 20:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That source was an interview witht he director of Slovakia's national uprising museum.Faustian (talk) 22:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Strong keep. One of the biggest massacres in Eastern Poland during World War II. I'm surprised that it is still just a stub after all these years. I guess, the big brother (with his busy little helpers) must be watching us here. --Poeticbent talk  21:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Just out of curiosity, of which "big brother" do you speak?Horlo (talk) 18:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Most information about the massacres in eastern Poland were blacklisted during the Soviet reign of power. That’s why so little was being written about them with scores of professional historians fearing the loss of their steady jobs before the collapse of the Soviet Union. Please read our short biography of Władysław Siemaszko – one of the first Polish writers who broke the wall of silence after the liberation of Poland in 1989. --Poeticbent talk  01:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Please, of which "big brother" do you speak?Horlo (talk) 08:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * According to the wikipedia page, Siemaszko was a member of the notorious 27th Division of the Home Army which Yale Historian Timothy Snyder has linked to atrocities against Ukrainian civilians. Here it is, the first paragraph on the page. Nice source, indeed.Faustian (talk) 04:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Faustian, I'm not going to vote on this one (unless I see something really compelling) but per our earlier discussion I don't think that Snyder links the 27th AK Division to atrocities against Ukrainians, he simply says (in the sources of his that I can actually access) that they fought Ukrainians, presumably UPA, which is an altogether different thing than committing atrocities. I do not see the evidence in the link you provide here (or the one below) either - there's no accessibility to Google books.radek (talk) 23:11, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Snyder know nothing about it and about 27WDP, he used Ukrainian nationalists lies as source. Read Motyka about 27th Division of the Home Army, he got special section about it. Remember that only 2 thousands civilian Ukrainians were killed in Volhynia (most of them by self-defence revenge and 201 Shutzman battalion) against 60 thousands Poles.--Paweł5586 (talk) 07:12, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Please use your energy not to discuss here, but rather to find reliable sources for this article - if there are no such sources, the article should be removed. Horlo (talk) 08:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. This is a firthy. The information is incorrect and as a result credible sources for it do not exist. It should be removed, or at least removed until proper academic sources appear. Bandurist (talk) 21:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete Since everyone else seems to be voting. Once reliable sources are found I will fully support a new article.  Until then, it only serves as a magnet for POV-pushing using nonreliable sources.Faustian (talk) 22:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC) *Note. Faustian is the nominator. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete - I have a problem with lack of sources for the idea of "massacre". As per Faustian, this article will only attract non-reliable sources. Did innocent people die during World War II? Absolutely. Was every death a massacre? Absolutely not. No reliable sources, so the article should be deleted. Even the editor who wrote this article thinks so, for crying out loud. Horlo (talk) 08:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * 862 people butchered - this is massacre, author didnt say here to delete article. I am looking for more sources, and more articles about SS-Galizien crimes will rise. Today about Palikrowy massacre.--Paweł5586 (talk) 09:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can find reliable sources that describe these deaths, I will gladly change my vote. However, there are none on the page. The author said to delete the article here [].Horlo (talk) 18:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It was March! I have found 8 sources about this massacre. As I ealier said the source - Siekierka & Komański is reliable.--Paweł5586 (talk) 18:18, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's the problem - you add 8 sources, and then are very happy that one of them is reliable! Why do you add the other 7? To make the 8th look good?Horlo (talk) 18:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete The sources are suspect the 1st does not supply a page number the 2nd is to a book on Google books that we can not read as its blanked out and the third looks to be a blog in Polish. --Jim Sweeney (talk) 11:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

'''::These are pages from Siekierka's book, if you want I will translate it from Polish. Below each article are sources - number of publications and reccolections.''' Author discovered 45 names of victims--Paweł5586 (talk) 12:58, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Szczepan Siekierka is also not a reliable source. He's not a historian, is a veteran of Polish self-defence units that according to Yale historian Timothy Snyder were killing Ukrainian civilians.  Evidence is [here it is, the first paragraph on the page, and his book is not published by an academic press or other reputable source but by a Polish publisher that publishes a lot of anti-Ukrainian propaganda.[[User:Faustian|Faustian]] (talk) 13:49, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Siemaszko isnt historian too but her book now is quoted in every book about Volhynia. She set number of victims which now is used for official Polish statement. As I said in chodaczkow talk, book was used by Motyka as source, was reviewed by historians. And dont blame self-defence for killing Ukrainians, they didnt start massacres, they had to fight for their lives, some soldiers saw mutilated bodies of own family members thats why they revenged. You dont understant it, try to see 6-months old baby sticked by knife to table (in Parośle I). Its tragedy.--Paweł5586 (talk) 13:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete also = potential POVFORK from the main Massacres of Poles article.Galassi (talk) 08:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. This potential source (Worldcat listing) appears to be from a reputable publisher that would be neutral in respect to Polish/Ukranian disputes, but the snippets displayed by Google Books aren't quite enough to be usable. Maybe someone watching this discussion has access to the book to see if it can be used as a source? Phil Bridger (talk) 17:30, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A good find. Please note that there are other book references to Chodaczkow Wielki massacre online in the form of similar snippets. Meanwhile, the editors who work so hard to have this stub deleted will not accept anything less than a full book in English, blessed by the their own personal highest authority. This is a catch twenty two. Even though your book reference might be available at a university library nearby, it would still lack the Google full page display for the purists. --Poeticbent talk  19:58, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * None of the snippets include info about a massacre.Faustian (talk) 15:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * KEEP I'm not an expert on WWII but this certainly looks notable to me.Simonm223 (talk) 21:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem isn't notability, it is a lack of reliable sources. If a reliable source were found than this event would of course be notable.  The article isn't up for deletion due to notability but because there are no reliable sources for it.Faustian (talk) 23:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Skomorokh  12:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * STRONG KEEP – many sources, 1. These are pages from Henryk Komański, Szczepan Siekierka, Ludobójstwo dokonane przez nacjonalistów ukraińskich na Polakach w województwie tarnopolskim w latach 1939-1946; 1182 pages, format B5, 379 illustrations, hard cover. We go exact description of event. Authors couldnt make it up. We got 45 names of victims. This book is used by historians, e.g. Grzegorz Motyka as source, and was reviewed by historians. 2. Grzegorz Rąkowski, Przewodnik krajoznawczo-historyczny po Ukrainie Zachodniej, Part 1. Oficyna Wydawnicza "Rewasz". 3. Table with number of victims in Tarnopol county by Association Commemorating Victims of the Crime of Ukrainian nationalists. And other sources on web pages Czesław E. Blicharski 1, Page source 2, 3, 4 and books by Żurek, Korman and Prus.--Paweł5586 (talk) 13:19, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Pawel just voted twice to keep.Faustian (talk) 13:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Changed the oversight into one vote and one comment. --Poeticbent talk  15:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep- I'm not an expert on polish history, but this incident certainly seems notable enough for inclusion. Umbralcorax (talk) 13:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Theincident is notable, if it did occur. It is not up to deletion due to notability, but due to no reliable sources to support the existence of the events claimed. If an article existed about the Japanese capture of Los Angeles during World War II, this event would be notable but there wouldn't, presumably, be reliable sources for such an article and it therefore would have to be deleted.Faustian (talk) 15:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - per refs found by Phil Bridger and Paweł5586, and per Umbralcorax and per Simonm223 --Mokhov (talk) 19:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I am now convinced of the insufficient reliability of the said sources. I agree with the recent move of the article to Velykyi Khodachkiv and will not oppose the deletion of the Chodaczkow Wielki massacre redirect. --Mokhov (talk) 19:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - please take a look at these sources, even the ones given just above by Pavel5586 - the first one apparently good because "the authors couldn't make it up" - the last two on-line newspapers, one a scan from a book which was barely readable. The lead in "other sources on web pages" - again a straight text page with no explanation - very likely a personal webpage. The problem here is that such pages do not represent reliable sources. Even information published by organizations called "Association Commemorating Victims of the Crime of Ukrainian nationalists" are not reliable if those organizations are relied upon only by their members. That's the issue here. I have many times suggested that Pavel5586 spend less time here and more time finding reliable sources so that this article can remain. However, it seems that these are the best that can be found, and they are not really good at all. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. Are you implying that the massacre doesn't deserve a stub in Wiki because the webpages, newspapers, travel books, photographs and scans cannot sufficiently confirm that the massacre took place? Or, that the massacre didn’t take place? --Poeticbent talk  15:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hello, please let me state my opinion again, as I stated in my original vote, to avoid misunderstanding - if there are reliable sources that show this massacre as described in the article took place, I will gladly change my vote to keep the article.


 * I hope that's clear.


 * Now, please let me reply to your comments: to create a website is free and easy, and anybody can do it. To scan a few pages from a book and then upload the scan is free and easy, and anybody can do it. That's why very high standards must be adhered to on Wikipedia. Otherwise, coasttocoastam.com could be considered a reliable justification for the existence of chupacabras. Now, I am not saying that chupacabras do not exist, I am saying that coasttocoastam.com is not enough to make me believe in something, and if a Wikipedia article about chupacabras existed only because of coasttocoastam.com, I would vote to remove that article, also. Likewise, I am not saying that this massacre did not take place, I am saying that the webpages, newspapers, travel books, photographs, and scans provided on the page are simply not reliable enough and do not stand up to questioning.


 * Please do not take the fact that I am using an extreme example as any disrespect to martyrs of World War II. I used it simply because it is a very clear example of why webpages and book scans cannot and must not be used as references.


 * Perhaps I may once again suggest that the energy put into the discussion here be put into finding sources for the article. I believe that this is the third time I have said that.


 * Perhaps I may offer another piece of advice - it may be worthwhile to look for sources which do not directly blame Ukrainians.
 * Thanks, Horlo (talk) 09:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * 'Delete due to lack of reliable sources. Stifle (talk) 21:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment *1) It is a Polish event that happened in Ukraine that seems to be not significant enough to have a separate article in the Polish, or the Ukrainian or Russian wikis.
 * 2) It doesn't seem to be a town or village that has a wiki entry.
 * 3) The Galizien division which was blamed for the massacre was in training at that time (April) until its deployment in July. (talk) 00:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Bandurist voted twice to delete. --Mokhov (talk) 17:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Bandurist has edited the comment above - Mokhov's statement was true when it was written. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - real unfortunate event, real story. No reason to delete it.--Jacurek (talk) 00:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In that case, could someone find a reliable source attesting to its occurance? Other massacres such as Huta Pieniacka massacre have reliable sources describing them. This one conspicuously doesn't. Shouldn't we have evidence from reliable sources first, and then the article? The reason this is up for deletion is because after several months no reliable sources have been found, not because the event (if there were a reliable source) wasn't notable.Faustian (talk) 02:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Nice google translation of the Polish wikipedia page for one of the sources used in this article is here. People here may want to read about the disturbing photo and what Korman did with it.Faustian (talk) 02:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment An interview of ChW survivor-resident Aniela Hrynowiecka makes no mention of any UPA massacre http://www.mountainvoices.org/Testimony.asp%3Fid=213.html . Galassi (talk) 10:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Good catch. In the lengthy interview the woman states that Poles were chased off and "assaulted" but does not mention any massacres or killings or Ukrainian UPA or SS at all. So this article relies on unreliable sources, and interviews that are contradictory.Faustian (talk) 12:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * This discussion is beginning to look foolish. The growing complexity of the above misguided and prejudicial proposal incited the Ukrainian tag-team to finally go bananas. Please make a note of it. One pro-Ukrainian editor puts in an irrelevant link, and... presto, another Ukrainian editor calls it an unreliable, contradictory source presumably confirming the validity of his stance against the existence of this article. – Stop stabbing in the dark, people! The anonymous woman from an interview quoted by Galassi left the village long before the massacre... Meanwhile, the rock solid reference I put in recently in a form of an article called "Zbrodnie wojenne ukraińskich żołnierzy SS-Galizien" (War Crimes of SS-Galizien) from the Magazine Na Rubieży, 52/1001 was immediately deleted by the same user Galassi. Is anybody listening? Somebody please, end this circus. --Poeticbent  talk  20:56, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you scroll down your "rock solid reference" you see that it is based on the discreditted work of Wiktor Poliszczuk. Nice try. And please don't asume bad faith of other editors by falsely claiming a "tag team". It was the side opposing deletion that solicited others on this issue as shown on this diff: .Faustian (talk) 21:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * For God’s sake, will you ever stop playing hookies with me from one article to the next? This is the list of references quoted in the article I brought in:
 * 1) A.Korman - "Nieukarane zbrodnie SS-Galizien z lat 1943-1945" - Londyn 1989.
 * 2) W.Poliszczuk -"Gorzka prawda" - Toronto-Warszawa 1995.
 * 3) E.Prus - "Rycerze żelaznej ostrogi" - Wrocław 2000.
 * 4) A.Kubasik - "Arcybiskupa A.Szeptyckiego wizja ukraińskiego narodu, państwa i cerkwi" - Kraków 1999.
 * 5) J.Mackiewicz - "Kontra" - Londyn 1984.
 * 6) J.Wilczur - "Zbrodnia bez kary" -  'Na Rubieży' - nr 52/1001.

By the way, this is the last time I'm taking part in this exchange. --Poeticbent talk  21:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A veritable collection of unreliable sources. This isn't the place to repeat it, but the sources are described in detail here: .Faustian (talk) 21:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hello, perhaps we could agree to limit the discussion here. Let's just vote and leave space for other editors to do the same. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:12, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Question: Faustian and Bandurist: how is this AfD affected now that the article has moved to Velykyi Khodachkiv and the massacre wikilink is now just a redirect. The move implies the article is now more about a geographic location, which is automatically notable and verifiable (and therefore must be kept). The alleged massacre under this move is not the main point of the article anymore and it seems the AfD is now moot. BTW, I support the move, but should the redirect be kept for AfD or how will it all work? --Mokhov (talk) 18:56, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that with the redirect the new article ought not be deleted. There remain serious Reliable Source issues with all info in that article pertaining to the alleged massacre but that's an issue that is distinct from this.  An article called "Chodaczkow Wielki massacre" based purely on nonreliable sources should be deleted. Velykyi Khodachkiv on the other hands seems acceptable for the exact reasons you gave.  Let's wait and see if someone from among some of the Polish editors tries to undo the redirect.Faustian (talk) 13:20, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Article is ok, but word alledge should be replaced by according to. In Polish Wiki, we have mention about Massacre in Chodaczków in SS-Galizien article.--Paweł5586 (talk) 13:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.