Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Rezanson


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Cirt (talk) 19:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Chris Rezanson

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Repeatedly created; let's air this one out to make sure the bases are covered. Does not meet WP:COMPOSER notability guidelines; has no independent coverage in WP:reliable sources. Chick Bowen 01:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  -- Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

i believe this article does meet the WP:COMPOSER notability guidelines...

"Has composed a number of melodies, tunes or standards used in a notable genre, or tradition or school within a notable genre." --Mouser Hyde (talk) 08:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

the article has also been referenced from reliable, third-party, published sources. --Mouser Hyde (talk) 08:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions.  — Paul Erik  (talk) (contribs) 18:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete a bunch of credit listings indicate that he is a working musician. Significant coverage in reliable sources would be needed to establish him as a notable musician and I don't see any of that coverage. -- Whpq (talk) 13:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:03, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * i disagree... as stated above, Rezanson has composed the scores used in a notable genre... this is wiki's own guideline and the article is within its parameters. --Mouser Hyde (talk) 23:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * i have switched out a few of the credits and included reviews that dedicate a paragraph to the merits of the sound and how well the titles benefit from it. --Mouser Hyde (talk) 07:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - the reviews do call out the music. However, they don't bother mentioning who did the music.  Yes, you can dig around to find him credited, but ultimately, a couple of reviews that mention that the music and sound for a video game was pretty good doesn't really establish his body of work as significant.  If it were, I would expect to see his work called out and identified in the reviews. -- Whpq (talk) 13:27, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per Whpq. Clubmarx (talk) 15:16, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Again, Wiki's guidelines state that not only is the genre relevant, but the titles such as "Sonic the Hedgehog" and "Lego" allow more than enough notary. if this is deleted, there will have to be a new precedence set for the dozens of other composers currently with articles. how can one deny the set parameters? this article is absolutely within the rules. --Mouser Hyde (talk) 18:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply - The criterion you are looking at is listed for "Others" bing "composers and performers outside mass media traditions". I don't think that video games are outside of the mass media.  This set of criteria is about musical genres outside of the mainstream such as tribal folk traditions from countries not covered by mainstream media. I really don't think it applies in this case. -- Whpq (talk) 18:34, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * in reference to Whpq's comments when considering movies or video game reviews, names are rarely if ever used to single out the components... this does not make them any less relevant. the fact that the music is even mentioned in detail within these reviews is rare. the Sonic the Hedgehog titles alone sold over a million copies further establishing notability. --Mouser Hyde (talk) 19:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If the composers are rarely mentioned, it's because the composer is not considered worth noting in the article. I'll point you to Jeremy Soule who has done video game music scoring and has been singled out for it.  In other words, reliable sources thought it noteworthy to identify him as the composer.  I simply don't see that notability here. -- Whpq (talk) 20:37, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Further Update i have added links to demonstrate Rezanson's significance both to the genre, and the franchises he has been involved with. --Mouser Hyde (talk) 19:41, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I remain unconvinced. -- Whpq (talk) 20:37, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * i believe the Sonic Billboard link directly references fan recognition to the composer's contributions... i have given you what you have asked for... specific recognition by name (even though this is rare within the industry, i have still managed to provide it)... the youtube link does the same.... when the composer's name is keyed in, it is predominantly Sonic the Hedgehog fans searching out his music and discussing it within the comments section. --Mouser Hyde (talk) 20:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Sonic the Hedgehog is one of the most recognized video game characters of today. since 1991 Sonic has sold more than 44 million games! Sonic the Hedgehog's music has always taken on a life outside of the video game console (predominantly in japan) and as each new title is released, new fans are created and search out the back catalog (hence the inclusion of the Sonic Billboard link.... where the composers are identified and rated by name). the composer in question created the music for not one but two of Sonic's titles... how can reaching millions of people not be a notable accomplishment? keep in mind, i am focusing on the Sonic the Hedgehog aspect... the composer has also created the soundtracks to Lego and Age of Empires which have also sold hundreds of thousands of copies. --75.31.70.52 (talk) 03:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * update added to the opening sentence. --75.31.70.52 (talk) 19:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. Does not meet WP:COMPOSER notability guidelines, no references are provided that help support his notability. Arguments made by Mouser Hyde don't hold water, IMO.  PK  T (alk)  23:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Reply - what about the first bullet point under the heading of Criteria for composers and lyricists? "Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition." i have shown the recognition of the composer winning the number one slot on the Sonic Billboard 2 months in a row for "Meteor Base" and the over 18 thousand hits on youtube for the musical track "Boss Battle".
 * The Sonic thing is not notable composition, regardless of whatever "Sonic Billboard 2" might say. The youtube stat is a red herring. 18,000 views isn't a big number on youtube - try searching "UQAM Lipdub" and check the hit number.  PK  T (alk)  20:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * sorry... i believe something went awry after my last post (a bad cut and paste) and i have duplicated a portion of the article... in fear i may accidently delete something or somehow further confuse things, i won't try and edit my mistake... thanks for understanding.


 * Reply after reviewing the WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. ... it states that using an "Other Stuff Exists" angle provides for consistency."When used properly, a logical rationalization of "Other Stuff Exists" may be used in a perfectly valid manner in discussions of what articles to create, delete, or retain." Wikipedia has, unintentionally, set a precedent for inclusion or exclusion when notability is contested (for example, high schools or geographic features), and in these situations this type of argument may be worth introducing. --75.31.70.52 (talk) 00:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * UPDATE Wiki's WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS backs my argument that the inclusion of this particular composer helps provide consistency... "When used properly, a logical rationalization of "Other Stuff Exists" may be used in a perfectly valid manner in discussions of what articles to create, delete, or retain." in the world of video games, composers are not "rock stars", but that does not make them any less notable. the composer in question has not only developed the themes and music associated with such brands as Sonic the Hedgehog and Lego, he has built a fan base based on these franchises (simply do a google search and observe the many playlists his name, not the name of the games or titles, but that his name is on... or the fan made ringtones that have been created based on his compositions)... wiki has dozens and dozens of video game composers with articles... many with less reference or notability, but someone deemed their articles valid... and i agree, they are all valid as the music is considered to be 1/4 of most game's workload. the composer is defining the character's environments and helping establish their brand... being the artist to be offered this responsibility is notable in itself (it is like tying an actor to a role). yes, many are not mentioned "by name" within reviews but i have provided two instances where the composer in question is discussed, awarded and even sought after. --75.31.70.52 (talk) 01:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - It does not support your argument. The essay (not policy or guideline) you are referring to spells out circumstances where an other stuff exists argument may be valid.  You haven't pointed to any concrete examples here of articles that clearly are keepers that this article under AFD is very much alike.  For example, if you can show that this article is similar to the Jeremy Soule article because they are video game composers and have won significant awards for their work, then I would be convinced.  But then again, if Chris Rezanson had won significant awards, he'd already meet other notability criteria.  -- Whpq (talk) 10:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * REPLY - the article i am trying to add to Wiki is similar to other video game composer's articles such as Yasuhiro Abe, Shinobu Amayake, Hirokazu Ando, Yoshino Aoki, Stephen Barton, Peter Connelly, Chuck Doud, Takahito Eguchi, Hidehiko Enomoto, Eveline Novakovic, Yasuhiko Fukuda, Olof Gustafsson, Minako Hamano, Chihiro Harada, Aki Hata, Jim Hedges, Dan Hess, Masanori Hikichi, Hajime Hirasawa, Tsuneo Imahori, Jun Ishikawa, Mieko Ishikawa, Daisuke Ishiwatari, Tappi Iwase, Takahiro Izutani... i got as far as the "i"s... please see wiki'd list of other game composers from "j to Z" if you need more comparisons. i can tell you Age of Kings won IGN's and Electronic Game Monthly "Game of the Month Award" and you will come back with "is the compose specifically named on the trophy?".... i can mention that Age of Kings won Canada's prestigious ELAN award for best game design (sound falls into design) and you will come back with "did the composer walk on stage and shake hands with the presenter?".... why does winning an award validate an artist in the first place? --Mouser Hyde (talk) 10:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not convinced that ELAN is all that prestigious. But in any case, being associated with a product that received awards without having direct recognition for the specific work would be an example of WP:NOTINHERITED.  As for sound design falling into game design, I disagree.  The awards material identify best game design as featuring execution in control, flow, mechanics, balance/tuning.  There is in fact a separate category called "BEST SOUND in a VIDEO GAME PRODUCTION".  See page 15 of the referenced PDF. -- Whpq (talk) 20:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * REPLY to Whpq i don't agree that awards within the artistic community should warrant notability... but obviously that is only my opinion. politics and art are not a good combo. as with many of the composer i have previously mentioned (i noticed you did not address this), i believe notability is achieved from the creation of contribution to popular culture. obviously, others think this way as all of these composers have articles... and please... before you make statements such as "I'm not convinced that ELAN is all that prestigious." do your homework! if you choose to oppose me, i believe i have the right to a fair trial... not one based on "what you think", but one based on "what you have researched"... i don't think it is fair to be up against only your opinion... i expect you to complete your due diligence!--Mouser Hyde (talk) 21:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply - I have done my due diligence. Sound design is a separate category from game design.  And as for other composers, WP:OTHERSTUFF is exactly why I, or others have not bothered discussing the other composers.  They are not relevant to this discussion, especially when all you have done is rhyme off a list of entries from a category without stating why they should be considered for comparison, and why that establishes that this article should be kept.  Fundamentally, this article is missing reliable sources (WP:RS) to establish notability.  This is the reason the article was nominated for deletion.  And despite all the words written in this discussion, this hasn't been addressed. -- Whpq (talk) 21:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * REPLY i was clearly asking about your due diligence in regards to your opinion on the Elan Awards... regardless of whether my argument is valid, you established in your opening reply an opinion that i believe was not researched. it seems the more i try and justify this article, the more i am up against your opinion... your Elan statement has me concerned that i am dealing with your personal interpretation of Wikis rules and guidelines... i "rhymed" off the list of composers to illustrate that their contributions are no greater than the composer i am writing about... i have clearly established precedent with the other composers... that my article has no less than any of theirs. --Mouser Hyde (talk) 21:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a discussion so everything is opinion. The significance of the ELAN awards is a big red herring. Rezanson didn't win an ELAN so the prestige of the award is irrelevant.  As such I didn't really delve into my reasoning for thinking it as not significant.  But you will note that I did do enough research to determine that he did not win an award, and that there are separate categories for game design and sound design.  So I disagree with your assessment that I didn't do any due diligence.  As for the list of composers, the argument you put forward is exactly what WP:OTHERSTUFF describes as not valid.  I've tried to explain it, but apparently I've failed.  I believe my intepretation is the one generally held, but that is something fort he closing administrator to decide.  -- Whpq (talk) 02:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * added to the article's reference --Mouser Hyde (talk) 22:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * REPLY please understand that i was not aiming at a "There's an article on x, and this is just as famous as that." angle... i was pointing out other composers in the spirit of consistency. my aim is to improve the coverage for the medium and continue celebrating those who work within it. yes, the links to the criteria and parameters are challenging, and i fear the spirit of their intent gets lost in translation. i have proven that the composer in the article is notable (millions of games sold, music discussed in multiple reviews, his association with characters such as Sonic the Hedgehog, Lego Toys, and Sponge Bob), but it seems that i have just not been able to prove to you, in accordance to Wiki's guidelines that he is notable. i could  send you links from online magazines filled with adoration for the music, and links filled with disgust towards the music... but because they do not refer to the composer within these articles by name, the composer is still left considered unnoteworthy. i am just hoping for consistency. i simply want Sonic fans, or Lego fans, or Nicktoon fans to be able to refer to Wiki for all their needs, not just some of them. i only want a fair trial... i hope the people that helped pass the other articles on the dozens of composers already occupying Wiki space continue to recognize the significance of the culture. i hope they continue to see the absolute certainty that notability is there, it's just that it becomes foggy when dealing with the language of the parameters. --Mouser Hyde (talk) 08:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.