Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Saunders


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Consensus is pretty clear that he does not meant the relevant notability guideline. Lankiveil (speak to me) 04:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Chris Saunders

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Notability has yet to be established. If he gets a fight against a bigger name opponent, then recreate the page. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 09:37, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:14, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:14, 17 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep 2 big fights plus 4(3 exhibition 1 pro) on Spike TV. Passes GNG. also passes point one of WP:ENT PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 10:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Cheers, Ri l ey    00:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - Fails WP:MMANOT and WP:NMMA. Has had two fights for top tier organizations, which were losses. --LlamaAl (talk) 04:58, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - This is not about being a MMA fan. We should respect policies and guidelines whether we like them or not. --LlamaAl (talk) 05:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:MMANOT because he only has two fights for top tier organizations. Being a former UFC fighter doesn't make him notable, notability is not inherited.  When/if he passes the MMANOT guidelines, the article can be recreated. CaSJer (talk) 21:00, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:NMMA. Being on TUF does not grant automatic notability. Jakejr (talk) 23:56, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment No. But that in conjunction with his other Bellator fight and his TUF finale fight I'd say he easily passes wp:gng. and here is a source from USA Today to help establish his notabilityPortlandOregon97217 (talk) 01:26, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Currently fails WP:NMMA. If at some point in the future he gains prominence and/or passes WP:NMMA, I have no objection to recreation (if that was in doubt).  --TreyGeek (talk) 02:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Treygreek: You're logic is flawed. If he were to not gain prominence yet still pass nmma you would nominate him? Why would you nominate something that isn't notable for an article on wikipedia? Seems like the only thing that really matters is his gaining prominence and that notable mma fights serves only to enhance, rather than guarantee notability and inclusion. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 04:04, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You keep saying that, but that doesn't make it true. Exhibition or unofficial fights obviously don't satisfy the criteria, any more than the sparring partner of a champion boxer can claim he fought for the world title. Jakejr (talk) 21:09, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete WP:MMA should be changed to clarify TUF exhibition matches. It is sanction just another match, with a modified "match system". With that I mean after 2 rounds, if draw; then "sudden victory". The reason the community doesn't count them is because it isn't in their record. I remember Rashad Evans had a different record on UFC and say Sherdog. UFC counted TUF matches. Since those matches were victories, UFC made a point of it. Regarding this fighter, though, I count 2 notable matches on 2 notable events. If the magic number is 3, this fighter should be removed from Wikipedia. Mazter00 (talk) 04:59, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:MMANOT and WP:NMMA. — ΛΧΣ  21  06:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete/Comment I find this to be an interesting issue. To my knowledge, the season of TUF that this fighter participated in is the only TUF season where the fights were live (all other seasons were tape-delayed and thus the fights were exhibitions). Therefore, for this season alone there may be argument that the TUF fights were professional UFC fights. Here, the fighter fought clearly once for the UFC in the Finale and has one other notable fight. The first round TUF win and quarterfinal loss are debatable as UFC fights and the fight to 'get in the house' is debatable as a UFC fight (assuming all these fights were live and thus not exhibitions). A question is if these were 'professional' fights. While clearly these guys were paid, were they paid to fight and for each fight or were they paid for being on the show? To me it is the latter and therefore TUF participation (outside of the Finale show) should be considered more under Notability (Reality Television participants). Further, while I am sure these guys are under some sort of contract, the UFC promotes this as the winner getting a 6-figure contract to fight in the UFC.  Therefore, I question how much the UFC considers these fights professional UFC fights.  Moreover, on the UFC website they only list Saunders as having one fight in the UFC and his record is consistent with the fights not being counted - http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Chris-Saunders.  In view of all this I think delete is appropriate, but I do think this raises a question that should be addressed for the Live season of TUF. -RonSigPi (talk) 17:08, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment/Fact Check In fact the second season did count. Please see Jardine and Luke Cummo's respective records . http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/f/2A5F73D2555AC10E/Luke-Cummo/ http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/f/94393BD0291CC4D0/Keith-Jardine/ . I'm not sure what being paid or the fights being "professional" have to do with being on TV as per WP:ENT or has to do with anything related explicity to WP:GNG. I don't think what the UFC thinks would override what users think on Wikipedia either. Not saying people neccessarily support it, but I was just using the example for arguments sake. The people who write the articles about these fighters don't seem to take those into consideration either here, here, here or here That demonstrates 2 months of coverage. Please also read WP:TUF. Even the nutshell will do. Heck, I'll comp you the nutshell

"This is an essay that supports the inclusion of The Ultimate Fighter reality show exhibition bouts towards WP:NMMA top tier fight requirements for primarily the following reasons All TUF fights are televised on a major television network, and the fights are overseen by The Nevada State Athletic Commission. Even though exhibition bouts do not count toward a fighters professional record the bouts are still hard-fought and unscripted[1]. While the fights in question might not exist as part of a fighters official record, they do exist in notable publications as this essay will demonstrate. This essay would also like to point out TUF fighters meet additional notability requirements as per line 1 of WP:ENT" PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 08:58, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If you look at the original discussion at the WP:MMANOT archives you'll see that consensus was that only the TUF finale counted towards notability. Jakejr (talk) 15:28, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if your comment was directed to my comment or not, but in case it was I wanted to point out that from what I saw the decision on TUF was before the season of TUF:Live (discussion was back in 2010). Therefore, I don't know if the original discussion addressed if things would be different if the season were live (as opposed to tape-delayed exhibitions).  -RonSigPi (talk) 18:17, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I would say the discussion on whether or not it's live is irrelevant. I used the watch the Grey Cup (CFL championship) on tape delay, but there's no doubt the game decided the CFL champion and was played live at one point.  The original discussion still applies because TUF is still a tryout, just as it was back then. Jakejr (talk) 19:53, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.