Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christabel (2002 film) and James Fotopoulos


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   withdrawn, self-closed, kept -- Y not? 15:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Christabel (2002 film) and James Fotopoulos

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NN filmmaker and his NN film. The NN production company Fantasma Inc has already been deleted by yours truly under WP:PROD. Total lack of WP:RS. -- Y not? 17:29, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Both Clearly case of WP:ARTSPAM. Fails Notability as per WP:GNG, WP:FILMMAKER and WP:ANYBIO. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:33, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Really not so "clear" if issues when can be and are addressed through regular editing: As a avante garde artist/filmmaker, James Fotopoulos meets both WP:GNG andWP:CREATIVE. Article on him is undergoing expansion improvement.
 * Even if not as "notable" as some big-budget studio-touted blockbuster, the film Christabel meets the requisites set by WP:NF. Its article is also undergoing improvement. Just keeping you apprised. The project is improved through being proactive. Deletion is the last resort.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 01:46, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I invite you to reconsider.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 03:44, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:40, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:40, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:40, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep BOTH: James Fotopoulos meets WP:BIO. The coverage of he and his works meets WP:GNG and thus WP:FILMMAKER.  And while his multiple awards may not meet WP:ANYBIO, so what? The filmmaker already meets the primary notability guideline. His film Christabel has received the requisite coverage (even if most is negative) to meet WP:NF. IE: Austin Chronicle  Film Threat  Chicaho Tribune and others (some behind paywalls). I can appreciate someone thinking an addressable issue as artspam, but what sort of search was made to uncover available sources even if not used in these articles?  Yes, these articles needs work.... but deletion of improvable topics rarely improves the project. What makes a better Wikipedia is actually addressing addressable issues.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 02:45, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: The findsources assigned by the AFD template for this 2001 film does not give decent results. What is required is to include searches with name, proper release year, and filmmaker name. Examples would be
 * Also, the article needs to be moved to a proper disambig Christabel (film) to over-write a redirect and, as it is verifiable as his, the "deleted-by-nominator's-prod" Fantasma Inc might yet merit a properly sourced article, or at the least a redirect of that name to its founder James Fotopoulos. A redirect to its arguably notable founder serves the project far better than an outright deletion.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 04:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * We can add more search parameters if anyone wishes.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 03:54, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Wasn't my prod, I just processed it after seven days. That's how I came upon the articles I have nominated for deletion here. -- Y not? 13:13, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I have struck that portion above. I still feel we can better serve the project by fixing that which is fixable than by deleting.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 19:30, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * And that's why I started this AfD, instead of quietly prodding these things -- so you could come along and try to save them from deletion. You really are an incredible inclusionist... -- Y not? 19:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. As an "IMPROVINIST", I will see what can be done pro-actively.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 02:58, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, the article needs to be moved to a proper disambig Christabel (film) to over-write a redirect and, as it is verifiable as his, the "deleted-by-nominator's-prod" Fantasma Inc might yet merit a properly sourced article, or at the least a redirect of that name to its founder James Fotopoulos. A redirect to its arguably notable founder serves the project far better than an outright deletion.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 04:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * We can add more search parameters if anyone wishes.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 03:54, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Wasn't my prod, I just processed it after seven days. That's how I came upon the articles I have nominated for deletion here. -- Y not? 13:13, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I have struck that portion above. I still feel we can better serve the project by fixing that which is fixable than by deleting.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 19:30, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * And that's why I started this AfD, instead of quietly prodding these things -- so you could come along and try to save them from deletion. You really are an incredible inclusionist... -- Y not? 19:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. As an "IMPROVINIST", I will see what can be done pro-actively.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 02:58, 6 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Update: Since the nomination and since the sole delete vote above, both articles have been undergoing improvement to serve the project,  Neither is the same as when first brought AFD.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 21:55, 7 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep both per improvements showing experimental filmmaker James Fotopoulos meeting WP:BIO through WP:GNG and WP:CREATIVE, and film Christabel (2002 film) meeting WP:NF through WP:GNG. We really do not expect avante garde filmmakers and avate garde films to have the same level of notability of filmmakers or production by big budget studios. We look for available coverage, not required to be in an article and then decide, These are both keeps. See WP:NRVE Igottheconch (talk) 22:18, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Were the nominator to try sourcing the article himself before nomming, he would have realised there IS notability, though not on the same level as, say, Titanic and James Cameron. Notability is not about sources present in the article, but about the sources out there waiting to be discovered. Thumbs up to Michael for rescuing these two articles! :) ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 05:51, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - While I hate dual noms, I think that they should be kept or at bare minimum merge to the bio page if the film has to go, but the critical reception discovered is likely to meet GNG. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:23, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - The sources on both articles meet GNG. 86.153.72.187 (talk) 08:47, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: No doubt the closer will recognize and consider that neither article is the same as when first nominated, and that all votes after improvement are (so far) supportive of a keep of the improved versions.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 03:44, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.