Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Bachmann


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  16:39, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Christian Bachmann

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An unremarkable SS major; significant RS coverage cannot be found. What I was able to locate is from WP:QS sources such as Marc Rikmenspoel (a Waffen-SS "guru", as discussed in Waffen-SS in popular culture), and an Italian author who runs an "official site of cultural association Ritterkreuz".

The article was created in 2008 using non WP:RS sources, such as geocities, Ritterkreuz.de, and frontjkemper.info: 2008 version, one of about 500 articles created around that time by editor Jim Sweeney (now retired). The only reliable citations are in the Awards section, but this is insufficient to overcome WP:BIO1E and lack of reliable sources.

The topic of the notability of Knight's Cross winners has been extensively discussed here: Notability in Knight's Cross Holder Articles; the summary in this subsection (Part 3). There's currently no consensus whether a single award of the Knight's Cross meets WP:SOLDIER #1, given that many were not awarded for valour and that too many were awarded overall (over 7,000).

Available sources on KC winners were discussed at Articles for deletion/Heinrich Debus (SS officer), with an insightful contribution from editor Assayer, who provided historiographic perspective on the sources (Thomas & Wegmann; Krätschmer; others) that were mentioned in related discussions. Per available information, such sources are non-RS for the purpose of establishing notability. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:10, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:22, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:22, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. North America1000 05:18, 21 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep With due respect to Assayer, that's one opinion. There are biographical entries on all these people in at least one of these multi-volume series by various authors in German, and yes, a series exists for Waffen-SS recipients. That, added to the other mentions in directories of KC recipients is, in my view, sufficient for GNG. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Commment: this is the same argument as offered in Articles for deletion/Wilhelm Beck, without producing the source or making sure that the content indeed exists. (The article was ultimately deleted). In any case, even if the source were produced, that would have been a single entry related to WP:BIO1E and would not have been sufficient, as other sources (Fellgiebel, Scherzer) are trivial one line mentions. K.e.coffman (talk) 15:39, 21 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment From 12 June 2003 to 4 January 2004, the Militärhistorisches Museum Flugplatz Berlin-Gatow, a branch of the Bundeswehr Military History Museum, and under the administration of MGFA, featured a special exhibition titled Das Eiserne Kreuz – Zur Geschichte einer Auszeichnung [The Iron Cross – The History of an Award]. At the museum, I bought a book by Thomas & Wegmann on this topic. In the lead, Thomas & Wegmann thanked the German Federal Archives, Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt) and the MGFA for their support and contribution in making this book possible. The works of Thomas & Wegmann may not be sufficient to qualify a KC recipient for the notability criteria of Wikipedia (your call to make), but I would disagree to say that they are unreliable sources and I would also disagree they were not endorsed (at least in 2003 they were). Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:19, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment -- I see that the Thomas & Wegman books were sold in the museum, and that the authors thanked the Archives in the preface of the book. The latter is a routine "thank you" that one would normally see for granting access; the former does not imply an endorsements. We'd need something stronger to support that these books were endorsed by the MFGA. Some reviews were provided in AfD of Heinrich Debus and they are very far from an endorsement. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:12, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 15:29, 21 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete lack of anything beyond very specialized coverage in massive augmentation biographical collections on German soldiers. Nothing showing significant impact.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:12, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
 * DElete -- This award was too common for every recipient to get an article. There is no detail of why his service was exceptional.  I accept that we have a RS, but that still leaves him NN.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:53, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete "Directory" hits it quite well. Thomas & Wegmann collect the names and military biographies of KC recipients by using archival records directly related to the award process, but they did not conduct further research, e.g. look for other sources to verify the accounts. Their multiple volumes might suffice as a directory, but it does not mean that their account of the events which lead to an award is historically accurate. They merely reproduce the claims made within the context of the recommendation and, above all, the reasons officially given for the award. Besides, as historian Bernd Wegner, whose book on the Waffen-SS is still considered to be the standard work, warned in 2000, it is not feasible to portray the Waffen-SS as an ordinary military unit made up of "normal" soldiers. Simply looking at the battles of the Waffen-SS without recognizing the history of the SS and of National Socialism as such would be ahistorical.


 * Concerning notability Bachmann is a good case in point. It is according to German sources that he "forced back the Soviet Union forces trying to take Budapest, several kilometers." That's all we know. The circumstances of his efforts are unclear and so far I haven't seen any sources providing further details or acknowledgement. He isn't mentioned in Charles Sydnor's Soldiers of Destruction (1977; 1990), a history of the Totenkopf Division, neither in Krisztián Ungváry's Battle for Budapest (engl. 2003), nor in the apologetic Budapest: The Stalingrad of the Waffen-SS (2001) by revisionist Richard Landwehr. That doen't speak for notability.--Assayer (talk) 23:29, 26 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.