Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Italy


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The "keep" arguments here are simply not policy-based. Consensus is that the subject is not notable, and can and should be covered within the numerous other existing articles. No prejudice against userfication for the purposes of merging the content. Swarm talk  00:25, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Italy

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Not an 'Italian denomination'. It is a Christian denomination headquartered in the United States with a presence in Italy. JWs in Italy are not a significant proportion of the Italian population (0.4%) or of JWs worldwide (3%). Jeffro 77 (talk) 02:56, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Statistics for JWs' presence in Italy are at Jehovah's Witnesses by country. If there is other pertinent information related to government recognition/interaction, it can be added to Religion in Italy and/or Jehovah's Witnesses and governments where relevant.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 03:24, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete - I agree that there are no country-specific "Jehovah's Witnesses denominations", the JWs are a Christian denomination, however. This is also supported by the fact that the listed official site is the same as the official site of the Watch Tower.  I've not checked the Italian Wikipedia, but it's not impossible that "denomination" was a mistranslation for "branch" or equivalent.  When there are JW splinter groups, those don't share the same site and are also termed as such.  There is nothing particularly notable about the JWs in Italy for a separate article (and there is no relevant material in Religion in Italy that'd be too large and need a split).  — Paleo  Neonate  – 12:19, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 12:38, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 12:38, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment -- There is almost enough here to keep. It is clearly not a separate denomination, but the emanation of a foreign denomination in a particular country might be enough to justify an article.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:43, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. From a strictly religious/denominational point of view, it is not a separate denomination. But, being the emanation of a foreign denomination in a particular country makes it worth of an article, as User:Peterkingiron argued. More importantly, from a legal point of view, the "Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Italy" is a religious body in Italy and, as such, signed an agreement with the Italian government (not yet law). Italy's Jehovah's Witnesses are not many in absolute terms, but, as far as I understand, Italy is the country with the largest proportion of Jehovah's Witnesses. --Checco (talk) 13:02, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a single sentence that could easily be merged in Jehovah's Witnesses and governments (and if they have a particular proportion, another that could be in Jehovah's Witnesses by country), hardly enough coverage to write a separate article... — Paleo  Neonate  – 13:08, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
 * All religious bodies which signed agreements with the Italian government have an article in en.Wikipedia. If this is too short, it might be expanded, but not deleted. The subject of this article is encyclopedic, indeed, no matter the article's length. --Checco (talk) 13:19, 25 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Jehovah's Witnesses is certainly a notable topic for encyclopedic coverage and is already given broad coverage, but JWs in Italy (or in country x generally) is not. The claim that JWs make up a notable proportion of Italy's population, even in comparison to JW presence in other countries, is demonstrably false. At about 0.4% of the population based on official JW figures, their presence is less than that in about 20 countries, ignoring countries with a population less than 1 million (and JW figures indicate 58 "lands" with a higher proportion of JWs than Italy). Even if only countries with more than 50 million people are considered, Mexico (0.67%) still has a higher proportion of JWs than Italy. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a determining factor, and it may be that articles about other minor denominations in a particular country where presence is even more minor are also not required.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 11:57, 26 September 2018 (UTC)


 * My main argument is that the subject has a legal status per se and is worth of an article, similarly to all the other religious bodies which have signed agreements with the Italian government. I agree with Other stuff exists, but I also cherish consistency and completeness. For readers' sake, it is better to provide a separate article on this subject, as for the other Italian religious bodies. --Checco (talk) 12:59, 26 September 2018 (UTC)


 * An organisation 'having a legal status' in a particular country does not automatically warrant (and certainly doesn't necessitate) an article specifically about that organisation in that country, and this also applies to the unspecified 'other Italian religious bodies'. (Or should we create McDonald's in Italy as well?) I'm fairly certain that the 'agreements with Italy' don't contain a clause 'guaranteeing them a Wikipedia article' (even if the agreement is at some point ratified). Articles such as Religion in Italy, Christianity in Italy, Jehovah's Witnesses and governments etc can capture the minutiae about minor groups.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 21:29, 26 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The argument that other denominations in Italy also have articles is also not a particularly good rationale since you are the creator of this article and you are also the creator of the other articles (e.g. Apostolic Church in Italy, Italian Buddhist Union, Italian Union of Seventh-day Adventist Christian Churches, Evangelical Christian Church of the Brethren, Methodist Evangelical Church in Italy).-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 00:02, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * My impression is the same. It's possible that IT Wikipedia doesn't have the same notability criteria EN one does, too...  — Paleo  Neonate  – 20:08, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually, en.W has looser notability standards and a more inclusionist approach than it.W. --Checco (talk) 06:05, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Atlantic306 (talk) 17:08, 6 October 2018 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete or merge. In fact, this should go to all of the articles that Jeffro77 linked above. There is no notability (WP:N). Allowing them in Wikipedia will justify the proliferation of useless articles like this one for each country in the world. Next, cities and neighborhoods. That the Italian government attaches a legal status to all foreign religions in Italy does not fulfill the notability requirements. Rosario (talk) 05:13, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   19:54, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
 * @User:Peterkingiron: Are you for keeping the article or deleting it? Can you please explain? Many thanks. --Checco (talk) 06:48, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep -- I do not like voting to keep articles on such religious groups, but if they really have 3000 congregations and 500k members + supporters, the national emanation is probably notable. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:02, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * (That's an unusual use of the word emanation; JWs don't emanate from Italy, and it's not a good synonym for either branch or presence.) Presence as a proportion of the population would be a better indication of notability, but notability for our purposes here is determined by discussion of the subject in reliable sources, not by the size of a subset of the group. But if we were to assess based on the numbers alone, JWs make up less than 1% of Italy's population (less than 0.5% by official JW figures). JW beliefs and activities in Italy are not remarkably different to their activities generically, which are given broad coverage in Wikipedia already. Recognition of the denomination by the Italian government, if notable, can be adequately covered at Jehovah's Witnesses and governments.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 08:28, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
 * It is a notable organisation and, as such, signed an agreement with the Italian government. I think this is article is worth for consistency with similar articles about religious groups and denominations in Italy. Putting Italy aside, I would favour an article on JWs by country. Just take a look to Category:Catholic Church by country, Category:Protestantism by country, Category:Islam by country, Category:Hinduism by country, etc. --Checco (talk) 14:38, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Notability of the denomination has not been contested, and it is already given broad coverage on Wikipedia, and 'signing an agreement with the Italian government' is not a criterion for an article. Jehovah's Witnesses in Italy are not a significant proportion of either the population of Italy or Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide. Catholicism and Protestantism are major Christian denominations (and strictly speaking, Jehovah's Witnesses is a form of Protestantism via the Bible Student movement via Adventism via Millerism) and Islam and Hinduism are entire religions; the comparison would therefore constitute undue weight to JWs.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 06:35, 19 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Merge to Jehovah's Witnesses and governments. There's really nothing in this article other than the fact that it exists and a few numerical statistics.  That's not enough to base an article on.  -- RoySmith (talk) 15:09, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete since the subject does not possess verifiable, independent notability. The most we get from sources is that the subject (a) exists, and (b) is officially recognized as a religious organization. Far from enough. Then, Merge (i.e. drop a mention or two) into the article "Jehovah's Witnesses and governments". -The Gnome (talk) 12:36, 22 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.