Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christodoulos Sabbatos


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Davewild (talk) 20:36, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Christodoulos Sabbatos

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Contested PROD. Verifiability issues, as well as notability. Can't find reliable, secondary sources to meet WP:GNG. Editor contesting the PROD claims that a full professorship is sufficient notability, as well as this subjects ecumenical prominence, but I can't verify either claim via WP:V, and WP:PROF seems to suggest that "full professor" isn't quite enough by itself, even if that was sourced (but sourced short of WP:GNG.) Possible language issues in finding sources. -- j &#9883; e decker  talk  16:46, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:54, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:54, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete, unless reliable sources can be found that establish notability. I was unable to find anything in English but perhaps there is something in Greek. As the article now stands it is an unverifiable BLP. As the nominator points out, full professor does not satisfy WP:PROF, distinguished professor does. J04n(talk page) 20:49, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. If he is a bishop in a mainstream church (and that remains to be sourced) he would be notable. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:49, 29 December 2010 (UTC).
 * Comment. The current orthodox bishop of Messenia according to this list is Chryssostomos. He seems unlikely to be the same as the subject of this article. So if Christodoulos Sabbatos was ordained as a bishop at all, it may be for a minor church that is not sufficient for automatic notability. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:37, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Question: is there a consensus somewhere that bishops of mainstream churches are notable? WP:Notability (people) doesn't mention clergymen at all and WP:CLERGY is no help. J04n(talk page) 23:45, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There was a discussion sometime before but it doesn't seem to help this BLP. Delete. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:07, 30 December 2010 (UTC).


 * Delete Unable to establish WP:V for him after a reasonable search. Jclemens (talk) 22:13, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Although the text is a verbatim copy of text at http://www.ireference.ca/search/Christodoulos%20Sabbatos/ the subject is worth keeping. Clearly, more work is required on this article, including renaming to Chrysostomos Savvatos since Christodoulos is not the correct first name. In fact, Chrysostomos Savvatos already appears in a list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Greece. If he is notable enough to list there then he is notable enough to write an article about.Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 08:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - that ireference.ca site is a copy of here, not the other way around. Also, it is quite common to listify (if that is a word) people who ARE NOT notable enough for stand-alone articles, even to the point of that being the outcome of some AfDs, so that isn't a reason for keeping either.The-Pope (talk) 09:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep It is standard practice for a person appointed bishop in the Greek Orthodox church to receive a new name almost always however conserving the initial letter of their Christian name, hence Professor Christodoulos Sabbatos is to be identified with Bishop Chrysostomos Sabbatos of Messenia and of sufficient notability to merit inclusion. Incidentally current bishops of the Orthodox Church of Greece (of whom Bishop Sabbatos is one of the more prominent)are barely represented in this encyclopaedia,an aspect which might deserve discussion here or elsewhere.Clive Sweeting. PS the text is not a verbatim copy of www.ireference... above, but presumably the inverse applies. The text derives mainly from the theology section of the Athens National and Kapodistrian University website.
 * Comment Interesting about the name thing, I appreciate the explanation. Can you show me *anything* that verifies that Chrysostomos Sabbatos, including the last name, is the Bishop of Messenia?  --  j &#9883; e decker  talk  18:03, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep -- Being a bishop in a National Church is clearly notable - all Anglican diocesan bishops seem to be notable. As Greece is the largest Orthodox country and Athens is its capita, it is likely that the theology department of its university is a leader on Eastern Orthodox theology. I assume that "professor" is used in the European sense of a head of department, not the American one of lecturer. I have added 2 links and two categories to the article and linked this article to the entry on the bishop in Church of Greece. Peterkingiron (talk) 13:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - Links and cats are good, but what you (or anyone else calling for keep) needs to do is to add references, preferably at least one that satisfies the general notability guideline -ie significant coverage in a reliable source that is independent of the subject. It doesn't have to be online, it doesn't have to be in English, just significant coverage, independent and a reliable source. Supply that and get rid of the BLP unsourced at the top of the page and most of us will never view the page again.The-Pope (talk) 15:17, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

**:Comment Why do you believe Sabbatos is a bishop? Do you have anything that corroborates that? -- j &#9883; e decker  talk  17:42, 30 December 2010 (UTC) (Struck, see below)
 * Keep Bishop in Greek Orthodox church. I've found a corrobrating reference. JASpencer (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * *:Comment Your cite to the letter, I'm pretty sure, is in error. The letter appears to refer to [] Christodoulos Paraskevaidis, who certainly is notable, not this guy. I've removed it as such. -- j &#9883; e decker  talk  17:35, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * *:Comment This reference also appears to be in error:, there is no clear reference in it to Christadoulos Sabbatos at all.-- j &#9883; e decker  talk  17:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments struck, the cited refs do make sense if we can link the Bishop Chrysostomos to Christadoulous Sabbos. --  j &#9883; e decker  talk  18:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep but potentially rename as nom an article for Bishop Chrysostomos of Messina Chryssostomos of Messenia. If it can not be verified through sources that that Bishop's last name is Sabbatos/Savvatos, and/or that Christodoulous was/is his first name, then those references should be removed and the article would have to be renamed in order to do that. I remain concerned that we're conflating two or three individuals here (as I did myself after seeing a reference discuss the entirely separate Archbishop Christodoulos Paraskevaidis), but I'm not stuck on the notability question. -- j &#9883; e decker  talk  18:28, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename, as nominator to reflect the first name as Chryssostomos (not sure about the double s) rather than Christodoulos as per WP:V. I've struck through the above in view of the additions I made to the article below, his web site at U. Athens, etc. --  j &#9883; e decker  talk  05:32, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete unless we can find sources actually confirming that Christodoulos Sabbatos and Metropolitan Chryssostomos of Messenia are one and the same. Currently we have only a source confirming that Chryssostomos is Metropolitan bishop of Messenia (note that Messenia ≠ Messina). The second source on the article is about someone else, a bishop Christodoulos. There is nothing in either source identifying these people as being the same as the Athens theology professor. So currently, the article fails WP:V regardless of how notable we believe a bishop to be. If the article is correct, I would expect reliable sources to exist (probably in Greek rather than English) and once they turn up I'll be happy to change my !vote. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:15, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I've now found the Bishops web page, and it's pretty clear that Metropolitan of Messenia Chryssostomos (not sure if that's 2ss or 3) Sabbatos is the name presented there. The only loose end that I can see, and I don't mean to put words in your mouth, is the issue of the first name, Christodoulos. I've added the bishop's UOA web page, as well as the Greek spelling and a link to his article in the Greek Wikipedia to the article. --  j &#9883; e decker  talk  05:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep now that the sourcing actually shows that the professor and the bishop are one. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:51, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.