Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chuck Forsberg


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Chuck Forsberg

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Unsourced biography of a (living?) person. No reliable independent sources with any depth (can't even get DOB), no independent coverage. No known awards. Contribution was fairly obscure and his fame has not endured past the dial-up BBS era. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:50, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Computing-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:16, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:16, 8 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep His contribution (YModem and, more importantly, ZModem) is hardly "obscure". Ask your Grandad. For references, I'd expect Tanenbaum's Computer Networks (standard university text of the period) certainly covers the protocols and I'd expect it to at least mention their creator. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. YMODEM and ZMODEM were quite important to early 1990s computing, and well known. Forsberg is widely cited for creating them. He won a Dvorak Award for Excellence in Telecommunications in 1992 (listed at the award's site and confirmed in another source). So he meets #1 and #2 at WP:AUTH. Notability is easily established. According to Forsberg's website, three sources covered a publicity stunt press event he staged to defend himself against claims made about ZMODEM's performance compared to Kermit. According to Rebels on the Air Forsberg participated in pirate radio station as a cadet at WMAS. The book cites a Forsberg's page from Forsberg's personal site (new URL). It's not a lot, but it seems like enough to keep a short article. --Pnm (talk) 01:50, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That helps, but it's a pity we haven't got any conventional biographical information. Is there anything that gives away, oh, say, what year he was born? Just one of the things that a real biography would be expected to have.  Yes, we know he invented ZMODEM. But what else?  Is he the Baptist minister? Is he the diet guru? And so on. Sources are silent about Forsberg the man and not Forsberg-who-invented-ZMODEM-that-was-popular-till-dial-up-BBSes-died. Does writing a widely used piece of software make the creator notable? And collecting virtual clippings from the subject's own Web site covering a one-shot press conference seems sketchy even by Wikipedia standards. I don't think someone is notable if you can't even find out what year he was born without flying down to his (unknown?) home city. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:41, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * When we have issues of verifiability with the assertion of notability in the article, then we are in a situation where notability cannot be reliably established. In this case, there is no dispute that the subject of this article is the creator of YMODEM and ZMODEM (see soruces below).  So the assertion of notability is verifiable.  So what remains is your query of not having a birth date available means that they are not likely notable.  I will point out that we have in fact lots of people in Category:Date of birth missing (living people).  So the only thing I can surmise is that you are really challenging the whether being the creator of YMODEM, and ZMODEM is a sufficient claim for ntoability.  I address that in my !vote below. -- Whpq (talk) 17:53, 10 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep - I will first admit a computing age bias and declare that I hail from the era of BBSes, and from personal knowledge know of the YMODEM and ZMODEM protocols. A google book serch for Chuck Forsberg shows that he is heavily identified with the transmission protocols that he created, and the material about these protocols indicate that they were a significant bit of work with respect to BBS file transmissions.  See, , , , , , and  are just some of the many hits that one gets int he book search.  Per WP:CREATIVE point 2, the transmission protocols were signficant new techniques, or in the alternative, per point 3, this work has been heavily covered in reliable sources with reviews. - Whpq (talk) 17:45, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * So creation of one, (once) widespread piece of software is alone, enough to assert notability? I don't think I'm trying to be difficult here, I'm just trying to figure out why Forsberg gets an article and the creator of the Clapp oscillator doesn't. Difference being, there's still Clapp oscillators in every darn thing, but there's a whole generation growing up that wouldn't know ZMODEM from Morse code. --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:59, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In this case, for me, the answer is yes, although it isn't one, but two transmission protocols that he worked on. As for the inventor of the Clapp oscillator, the existence or lack of existence of other articles has no earing on this AFD (WP:OTHERSTUFF).  I am assuming you mean James Kilton Clapp which is currently a redirect to the Clapp oscillator article.  The redirect's history shows that it was recently created.  There's no indication that it went through any deletion.  I have no idea if he deserves an article as I've done no research about him, but as I said, that he doesn't have an article has no bearing on this discussion. -- Whpq (talk) 18:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * He wouldn't warrant an article for YModem (a fairly simple evolution from XModem), but he does for ZModem alone. So does Phil Katz for the PK archivers and Phil Zimmerman for PGP. Sometimes one invention is enough, even if it's software rather than hardware. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:53, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * A protocol isn't the same thing as software. It's more like inventing a language. This was back when downloading 1 MB took 20 minutes. ZMODEM was much faster: a revolutionary improvement on its predecessor. This made Forsberg so famous he was given an award. (Incidentally, I agree re YMODEM.) --Pnm (talk) 00:24, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.