Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CiviCRM


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Stifle (talk) 18:48, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

CiviCRM

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Contested proposed deletion. This non-notable product describes itself as customer relationship management (CRM) software. What it is might be slightly more significant: it's apparently software targeted at fundraising concerns for generating the sort of automated appeals for more that anyone who gives to charity will be punished with.

Despite the reference to the Wikimedia blog, I don't see any real notability for this product. As back office software for fund raising concerns, it has a very small market and is unlikely to be technically important in the history of the field, and of course it's necessary to throw in the chundersome "customer relationship management" TLA. References are to the Wikimedia blog, a business using the product, and to its internal documentation. No real showing of historical, technical, or cultural importance or long term historical notability. Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 19:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions.


 * Keep. CiviCRM isn't merely back office, it is also the frontend for many nonprofit sites, a primary reason it has 1.2m hits in Google. The market it is in is significant: there are many thousands of NGOs in the world and the for-profit side of the market supports at least two significant companies, Convio, Blackbaud, and a part of Salesforce.com's business. According to Google CiviCRM is also cited in a number of current news articles, 16 books, and 35 scholarly articles. (Full disclosure: my employer uses CiviCRM) Mike Linksvayer (talk) 15:39, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not unswervingly committed to deleting this, if it in fact belongs in the history books. I found this during one of my periodic search sweeps --- I think this one was caught by "management solution".  If you're familiar with the software, would it be possible to describe its operations more concretely and specifically?  I must admit that TLA phrases like "customer relationship management" rouse choking fury in me.  The phrase would mean something entirely different in a charity as opposed to, say, a payday loan business or an automobile dealership.  Their appearance seems part of a patter, meant to defeat understanding rather than enhance it.  They are inherently non-neutral.  So while this software may be significant, it's use of TLA patter makes it seem a lot less so. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 17:09, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I've tried to rewrite the lede to be more informative. I'm still not fully convinced of notability, and am finding it mentioned mostly in directories or credits. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 19:15, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep The part about three million users is what got me. Doc Quintana (talk) 15:39, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep CiviCRM is also notable because it is one of the very few pieces of software in this space that is free software, distributed under the GNU Affero General Public License. It has the endorsement of the Free Software Foundation (my employer -- http://www.fsf.org/news/nonprofit-fundraising-civicrm). As a free software project, it is also interesting because of its development methodology -- any researcher wanting to read about the development trajectory of software used in organizing around social causes will likely want to look at it. It's not just for generating appeals, it's also for organizing events and registration, for enabling people to find other people with similar interests located near them, for petition signing, and many other organizing-related functions. The overall genre of CRM software is certainly important -- literally every operating nonprofit organization uses something in this area. Johnsu01 (talk) 17:38, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Being free software does not automatically confer notability on otherwise non-notable software, and to suggest that it ought to get a pass because it is free software suggests inherent bias. I will agree that the product category of "CRM software" probably deserves a general article, no matter how slippery and vague the genre is. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 18:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. I'm sure there have to be notable sources on CiviCRM out there somewhere. It has a pretty big userbase. Also notable as one of the only free software product in this market. Kaldari (talk) 18:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. Bring me one piece of substantial coverage in a firmly reliable source (i.e. not a Wordpress blog) and I will be convinced that this isn't just getting a bye because it's free software, and be happy to reverse myself and close this as a snow keep. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 14:07, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Added two refs that aren't Wordpress blogs. Mike Linksvayer (talk) 15:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * One of the sources you added was a Wordpress blog. The other, a blog hosted by a PBS commentator, has the following mention of this software, one sentence in a story about social media and "Web 2.0" (drink changaa and die!) in Africa: "The potential for bloggers here is huge as there are over 1000 member organizations each with its own space for blogging as well as features for forming groups and forums all made possible by Drupal and CiviCRM."  I am still not certain that counts as substantial enough coverage; it tells me little about CiviCRM itself.  My impression is that this article is still being given a pass because the software has fans on the Wikimedia Foundation and Free Software Foundation. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 16:11, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. Lots of other places use it including Mozilla & CreativeCommons. It's one of the few full featured open source solutions for not just "back office" operations but also event registration, school management, case histories .. etc. It also falls into the same category as Sugarcrm which has a healthy article. Since CiviCRM was in its early stages when this article was started i'm not too surprised its not a bit more detailed. I think we just need to give it some love and update on new happenings past old news like —Tfinc (talk • contribs) 19:34, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete I do not see third party references that back up any of these alleged superlatives. Miami33139 (talk) 07:16, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see any superlatives in the article. What is an "alleged superlative" anyway? Mike Linksvayer (talk) 15:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.