Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Clan Crozier


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was the consensus is to delete --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:11, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Clan Crozier

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

The entire article is a mass of original research by a lone editor.

Here's a breakdown of the first section:
 * The first para seems to be synthesis drawn from several dictionaries.
 * The second para contains a conclusion drawn straight from a primary source.
 * The third para is partly drawn from an unreliable webpage.
 * The fourth para is drawn straight from a primary source.
 * The fifth para is original research drawn through DNA tests presented on a personal webpage, and personal interpretations of place names, personal names, and maps.
 * The sixth para is drawn straight from primary sources.
 * The seventh para is original research drawn from the supposed distribution of surnames.
 * The next four paras are drawn straight from primary sources. There's no secondary source to show any of this information is any way relevant. The rest of the section is more of the same, with unsourced musings, assumptions and conclusions.

The article continues in the same vein. Names of individuals are cherry-picked at the whim of the editor from various primary sources without any secondary source showing context or relevance.

The section on heraldry contains imaginary coats of arms created by the editor himself. There's a section on a tartan, and another on mottoes drawn from seemingly random people named Crozier. The rest of the article comes across as boldfaced gibberish accompanied with annotated screenshots of Victorian primary sources. Unfortunately the editor is spreading this nonsense into other articles.

Anyway, this content belongs on a personal webpage not Wikipedia. I have no doubt that someone can craft a reliably-sourced and useful article on the historic Crozier border family, but this is unsalvageable and a detriment to unsuspecting readers.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 00:34, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Scotland-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:50, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I would support the deletion of this article. The reasons being firstly that the "Clan Crozier" is not a recognized clan by the Lord Lyon King of Arms - with or without chief. Secondly most of the information in the article is random information not specifically about the "Clan Crozier" but rather what seems to be heraldic information, that is incoherent and will not make any sense to any one reading it who is new to the subject let alone anyone who is a clan historian.QuintusPetillius (talk) 16:29, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

False the article was started by someone else, who is wanting someone with genealogical experience to help of. Being descended from the nephew of Clement Crozier's nephew Robert Elliot in modern language, but in 16th century language Clementis Hobs, felt I could help established a vanquished Crozier Clan and make them Unvanquished like their allied the Armstrong. 05:57, 12 December 2015‎ 67.0.63.191 (talk)‎. . (12,050 bytes) (+645)‎. . (→‎15th century: Crozier is a Crozier site and wanted help from a genealogist. Since granddad Robert (Hob) Elwode (ie Elliot) was adopted by uncle Clement Crosar to become Clementis Crosar (ie Crozier) helped the Crozier. Am an Elliott this is my site.) (undo) (cur | prev) 19:08, 9 December 2015‎ QuintusPetillius (talk | contribs)‎. . (11,405 bytes) (-312)‎. . (Removed bizzare self made image of what is claimed to be some sort of sasine. You are free to do what you like to your bogus Clan Corzier article but I will fight you all the way if start adding such rubbish to other clan articles)

Is that what you said? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.0.63.191 (talk) 02:56, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Doing a Google search "Clan Crozier", because information I have developed, and also the images, the people searching "Clan Crozier" will not be going to Wikipedia where they site is for their modification, but will be going to one of my websites; gorrenberry.com. Though the individual who's criticized me is quite dictatorial, in trying to keep me from being a foremost authority, he will have these Crozier fall to a website they can not control. It would be similar to have a Clan Elliot web site in which Elliott do not have participation, and are told who they are. Mark Elliott — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.161.67.169 (talk) 22:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 17:59, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

From a research genealogists point of view if those which are descended from the given surname like Crozier are superseded on the knowledge background of their given family, the information on any given clan on Wikipedia will not have viability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.123.235.204 (talk) 05:54, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete -- I would be far from surprised if there are not some elements of truth in this article, but taken as a whole it is an essay made up of irrelevant and unconnected ramblings, some of them unrelated to the surname Crozier.  Tartan was a highland dress until outlawed after 1745, and revived as a variety of antiquarianism in the 19th century, with Edinburgh outfitters inventing tartans for lowland clans that had never historically worn any.  I expect that the coat of arms did belong to someone of the name, but that does not mean that it belongs to everyone of the surname.  I could no doubt find more wrong with this WP:ESSAY, if I tried harder.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:50, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - Don't get me wrong, I am all for having articles about the Scottish clans but this article is just full of meaningless sentences and paragraphs. Wikipedia articles are supposed to make sense to anyone reading the article who is new to this subject and the nonsense included in the Clan Crozier article does not make sense to me and I am an experienced researcher of the Scottish clans. Therefore it won't make sense to anyone who is new to the subject. All the content is written in very bad English - as are the contributions to this talk page by the editor who created the article. And the editor who created the Clan Crozier article has already been temporarily blocked twice as both User talk:67.0.63.191 and User:Lawismarkellot for edit warring on the Clan Eliott page. Further he seems to be citing nothing but his personal ancestry to the Clan Crozier article which is not specifically about the "Clan Crozier" which the article should be about. He is also using his personal ancestry as the only argument on the talk pages as to why he is right. Besides all that the Clan Crozier article is nothing but a meaningless mess which is drawing conclusions from primary sources, and combining secondary sources to prove an otherwise unpublished point of view which is original research and not permitted on Wikipedia as per: No original research.QuintusPetillius (talk) 16:47, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

He is a Hunter in-law which does not respect my brethren as a Gorrenberry Elliott the Armstrong; Follow links from Clan Armstrong allied to the Elliot are not listed on Clan Eliott site.

http://www.clanarmstrongtrust.org.uk/ Clan Armstrong Trust http://gorrenberry.com/armstrong-fairbairn-elliot-y-dna-link/ https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/flor/article/download/14397/20215/ Top historian of Scottish history; Dr Jackson W.

The Gorrenberry Estate once of the Family of Buccleuch is slated for Wind Edge (Hermitage Castle) wind farm this is my families ancestral land. To the Norman Redheugh Clan, I am "Cowie of Gorrenberry", but to the Armstrong I am their younger brother in a Danish sense "The marsh dwelling elk".

The difference between the name Eliot (Breton) and the name Elliot (Borders) is one character.

The difference between; http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/elliot2.html and http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/elliot.html but the true difference between the two links shows whether only the Norman Eliot, family of the in-laws speak or whether the in-laws the Hunter and the family Elliot-Elliott get to speak also.

It also will determine the future validity of family Clan sites on Wikipedia, if the in-law like this time of year are the ones telling who the families are and not the families themselves.

From The "Cowie of Gorrenberry", or "The Marsh Dwelling Elk", have a happy season an a prosperous and healthful 2016 especially for the in-laws. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.123.235.204 (talk) 18:48, 27 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete almost unintelligible ramblings, by editor who does not seem to be able to understand this is not Facebook (see "happy season an a prosperous and healthful 2016 especially for the in-laws" immediately above). Appears to have attempted to shoe-horn in any reference to Crozier, however ir/relevant. Very few reliable independent sources, numerous Victorian "romantic" histories of dubious reliability. Blow it up and start over - Arjayay (talk) 12:14, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

The problem with blowing it up and starting over, the Crozier, like the UK Armstrong will seek information elsewhere. Today I administrate and operated two web sites, which represent me descended from a William Elwald of Gorrenberry, 1484 at the creation of Redheugh for today's Clan Eliott chief. Am under the shield of the stag-head as described in The Chronicles of the Armstrong.

The United Kingdom Armstrong search for information, and dominate in seeking information from my one site elwald.com, and the crozier, if one is to put "Clan Crozier" in to the Google search, you will see my other site gorrenberry.com to be referred to. The husband of today's Redheugh, has MI6 experience, when the elwald.com site came under attached I created another site gorrenberry.com.

In 1484 you will find on the Redheugh sasine of this site, that William Elwald of Gorrenberry, is there with Walter Scott, of Edschaw, who is the son of David Scott of Buccleuch, along with two brother of Cessford, to create Robert Elwald of Redheugh.

When you get to Trevidale where one finds Hob Elwode, Clemt syster sone. That is Clement's nephew, or Clementis Hobs as listed in "Thieves of Liddesdale", who I am proud to claim as my granddad. Another line you may read is;"Mathewe Hunter John Crosyer kynsman." It should be noted that the Hunter family is also related. In resettlement 1540 of English revels Clement Crozier, Archie Elwald of Gorrenberry, Robin Elwald of Redheugh, Hector Armstrong of Harlaw, and others resettled these Hunter on Hunthill near the Ker's Ferniehirst Castle.

Feel that the Crozier family show be writing this article, do not like feeding the Armstrong from my elwald.com site, or the Crozier from my gorrenberry.com site.

If you go to Clan Eliott, one may ask what is in an extra character being added; Eliot is the Wm de Aliot of Southern France branch of the name and Elliot with an extra "l", is the evolved from Ellot, with an inserted "i" branch of the name where Ellot evolve from Elwald.

In websites it makes a great difference also;

given;

http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/elliot2.html

It will take one to a censored form of giving only the history of the Eliot family with a single "l" and single "t", where if one takes the character "2" out of the link it gets rid of the censorship.

http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/elliot.html

The writer of the first my brother-in-law Keith Elliot Hunter, does not have the technical capability to know the difference, so he was helped by Redheugh with MI6 background.

Redheugh (Clan Elliot Chief) and Ferniehirst (Clan Kerr Chief), and Cessford (Duke of Roxburghe) are all linked to North British Windpower NBW

Google "North British Windpower), then Google "North British Windpower NBW" and see how many of the images come from;

www.elwald.com/chiefs-kerr-elliot-duke-of-roxburghe-nbw-nbwp/

or

gorrenberry.com/chiefs-kerr-elliot-duke-of-roxburghe-nbw-nbwp/

The of NBW support The Windy Edge (Hermitage Castle) wind farm on the past Buccleuch Gorrenberry estate, and that is why Wikipedia, and the Elwald-Ellot of Gorrenberry are being censored because corporate wind farming want to place a wind farm on my families ancestral lands, and that is why it is important like I have always been asking for input on this article especially from the Crozier which started. It seemed like they wanted someone with genealogical experience. If you go into to my two websites one will see I have genealogical experience.

To blow up this site the Crozier will go to gorrenberry.com. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.123.235.204 (talk) 15:47, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Consensus
We appear to have consensus of at least 3 people in this discussion, if not more, who want to delete the Clan Crozier article. In reply to the above the problem editor's websites which he claims show that he has genealogical experience actually show nothing of the sort and are a complete mass of unlogical nonsense.QuintusPetillius (talk) 15:30, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Clan Crozier From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This is my first attempt at creating a Wikipedia page, hence its low quality and brevity. I am not an expert on geneaology or Clan Crozier, but merely one who thinks the page should be created given the availability of information on the web, and the existence of other clan pages much like the Croziers (e.g. Armstrong).

I look forward to seeing this article evolve!

Will I Lawismarkellot, to help out the person above with strong knowledge of Clan Crozier being descended from Clementis Hobs (in modern language Clement Crozier's nephew Robert Elliot), found in the last paragraph in "The Thieves of Liddesdale", and they being in Riccaton, close to Robert 15 of Lariston, and his younger brother Martin of Prickenhaugh, felt I had an genealogical background to help and assist the owner a KCrozier of this article. Just trying to help a vanquished clan to became unvanquished. Sincerely Lawismarkellot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.123.235.204 (talk) 06:00, 30 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.