Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Clarence "Jeep" Jones


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Compelling arguments that the GNG is met are presented. Note that the article needs serious work--pruning and de-fluffing. Drmies (talk) 03:03, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Clarence "Jeep" Jones

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Subject of article does not appear to be notable according to the terms of WP:POLITICIAN. He was an appointed (not elected) deputy politician of a US city (not a state-wide office nor federal), and article references do not look like they qualify as independent third-party sources with editorial oversight. I was able to find one 4-paragraph article from Jet magazine from April 22, 1976 which mentions Jones becoming deputy mayor, but no discussion in wider media and nothing more in depth. KDS 4444 Talk  23:37, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi User:KDS4444, I completely understand your notion that deputy politicians of cities shouldn't qualify as being notable simply due to their political poisition. As the original creator of the article, I just want to mention some points that can hopefully contribute to the debate over the articles' deletion. First and foremost, the creation of this article is part of a class and I plan on contributing continuously to the page. I realize that as of now I rely heavily on primary sources and possibly shouldn't have gone live with the article, but there do exist independent third-party sources that cover Jeep Jones and his relevant importance to the city of Boston. In regards to April, 1976, the time of the school busing debate in Boston, Jones played a role in mediating tensions within the city. I've found a few published books thus far in a general search that mention his role in the racial issue, including Rebound!: Basketball, Busing, Larry Bird, and the Rebirth of Boston By Michael Connelly (2008) and The Soiling of Old Glory: The Story of a Photograph That Shocked America By Louis P Masur (2008). I really do appreciate your comment and concern as this is my first experience with the creation of an article. I request that this page be kept 'alive' until further, more in-depth edits can be added at which point I'd accept deletion if consensus dictates so. I do not ask that the "request for deletion" tag be removed, I just wanted to add my input to the talk page. Let me know what you're thinking about this! Thanks Matt rodgers2 (talk) 13:18, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Massachusetts-related deletion discussions. lavender|(formerlyHMSSolent)|lambast 01:38, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. lavender|(formerlyHMSSolent)|lambast 01:38, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Moving my response to article creator's talk page. KDS 4444  Talk  01:33, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete Jones does not pass any well defined notability guidelines. Local appointed officials are generally not notable in the grand scheme of things.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:16, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep The article needs more references, and it needs to lose a few puffery terms like "outstanding". But he certainly looks notable to me. Granted, he does not meet WP:POLITICIAN, but he almost certainly meets WP:GNG - among other things for being the first African-American to hold a number of city positions. Serving on the Boston Redevelopment Agency would not be notable by itself, but serving on it for more than 30 years and chairing it for 24 of them sounds a little more significant. The city thought he was notable enough to name a park after him. --MelanieN (talk) 01:41, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * P.S. I added a couple of references. --MelanieN (talk) 01:58, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 00:38, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete Not notable to the point of being an article. Some articles might benefit from this information but I don't see this topic meeting GNG Bryce Carmony (talk) 00:44, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep – Has received significant coverage in reliable sources (see below). Hirolovesswords (talk) 00:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Cowen, Peter A. "'Jeep' Jones quits as deputy mayor". The Boston Globe. November 21, 1980.
 * Jordan, Robert A. "'Deputy Mayor 'Jeep' Jones shows he's no 'yes' man for White". The Boston Globe. June 22, 1977.
 * Haynes, Walter and Rogers, David. "Jones expected to be deputy mayor". The Boston Globe. March 25 1976.
 * Hirolovesswords (talk) 00:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * From Verifiability: "Some reliable sources may not be easily accessible. For example, an online source may require payment, and a print source may be available only in university libraries or other offline places. Do not reject sources just because they are hard or costly to access. If you have trouble accessing a source, others may be able to do so on your behalf (see WikiProject Resource Exchange)." The sources listed above cannot be rejected "just because they are hard or costly to access" (per the policy I quoted above). Cunard (talk) 10:23, 4 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete Deputy major is not notable, so the article are no t significant. This is essentially political promotionalism.  DGG ( talk ) 02:59, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: That's kind of an irrelevant argument, actually - because nobody has claimed that deputy mayors are notable, or that this subject is notable because he was deputy mayor. We all agree that he fails WP:POLITICIAN. The discussion here is whether he meets the more general notability standard, WP:GNG, by having received significant coverage from independent reliable sources. (I am also impressed by the city naming a park after him. Apparently the city of Boston thought he was notable.) --MelanieN (talk) 23:34, 3 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment -- In full disclosure, I'm assisting with the class in which this student is participating. I can comment re: political promotionalism: the subject of this article is not involved with the creation of this article. In addition, WP:NRVE states reliable citations only need to exist, even if they haven't made it into the article yet. (Obviously, getting them into the article is the best option.) And, thanks to KDS4444 and MelanieN for your many comments and help here and elsewhere! AmandaRR123 (talk) 21:43, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * This sounds great, AmandaRR123. And that reliable citations exist is good to hear!  But that claim, without actual supporting evidence, doesn't allow anyone to WP:VERIFY it or independently assess the subject's notability.  The terms of article creation are quite clear: "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable". Also, from WP:NRVE: "However, once an article's notability has been challenged [as it has here], merely asserting that unspecified sources exist is seldom persuasive". Hirolovesswords has offered a list of sources which might provide evidence of notability.  The sources look reliable (The Boston Globe is a newspaper with sufficient distribution and editorial oversight), but with only the limited information so far provided (i.e, with no page numbers and ideally some links to the archives of the newspaper itself) and without including them in the article to know what parts of it are supported by which citations, we cannot tell if this coverage is anything more than WP:ROUTINE which would not be evidence of notability.  I am willing to concede that the article's subject might, in fact, be a notable politician...  I am only asking for the article to meet the basic standards for inclusion on Wikipedia, one of which is evidence of notability as demonstrated by the inclusion of multiple independent reliable sources so that this can be verified. --  KDS 4444  Talk  23:03, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I hear you on not being able to see these historical newspaper sources! It's one of the most frustrating things, working with these historical topics -- not being able to easily share these sources. I'm adding a few citations as "further reading" linking to the Globe archival snippet online. Not perfect, but gives more of a sense of the scope of coverage? AmandaRR123 (talk) 01:40, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
 * AmandaRR123: The Boston Globe provides on-line access to all of its articles dating back to 1872, with a search page located here. We don't need to be able to read the full article, we just need to see a link that points to it— the articles you are referring to must also exist in the electronic archive, yes?  Because then all you need to do is fill out a newspaper citation template located here and use the URL of the electronically archived page to fill in the URL field, and ta da!  Citation complete!  KDS 4444  Talk  05:51, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The existence of the second source provided by Hirolovesswords can be verified by clicking on https://secure.pqarchiver.com/boston/results.html?st=advanced&QryTxt=Deputy+Mayor+%27Jeep%27+Jones+shows+he%27s+no+%27yes%27+man+for+White&type=historic&sortby=RELEVANCE&datetype=0&frommonth=03&fromday=04&fromyear=1872&tomonth=12&today=31&toyear=1979&By=&Title=. But the only information available is: "Deputy Mayor 'Jeep' Jones shows he's no 'yes' man for White Jordan, Robert; Boston Globe (1960-1983); (Jun 22, 1977), p. 19." The title of this article indicates that it is nontrivial coverage about the subject (that he is not a "yes" man). Cunard (talk) 10:23, 4 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep In addition to The Boston Globe articles listed above by Hirolovesswords, here is an article from the Boston Business Journal that is already in the Wikipedia article:There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Clarence "Jeep" Jones to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 23:17, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Consider this article from the Boston Globe, June 9, 2005: Peabody to name new city clerk. It reads, "The Peabody City Council at its meeting tonight is expected to select a successor to City Clerk Natalie Maga, who is retiring effective July 1. Maga has been clerk since 1977."  That is the entire article.  Although it comes from a well-known and highly reliable source, it does not make either Natalie Maga nor her successor notable because it is routine information akin to a marriage announcement or an obituary.  Every city in the U.S. likely makes announcements when a city official retires or is hired, but that does not make the subject notable.  What we need in order to retain this particular article is something that provides in-depth coverage— not just a retirement notice, no matter how reliable the source. —  KDS 4444  Talk  05:37, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I was the one who suggested to AmandaRR that if there wasn't currently time or opportunity to cite additional sources in the text, they could be listed as "Further Reading" so that they can be evaluated for purposes of this AfD. These are not all "routine announcements"; in fact, considering the non-notable nature of his deputy mayor position, he got a surprising amount of coverage during his time at city hall. And it's not just a matter of counting the sources; it's also what they SAY about him. Examples already in the article: the Business Journal article says he was "a central figure in the building renaissance that has transformed Boston’s skyline." The book Rebound describes him as one of the city's "most prominent black leaders." IMO the newspaper and other citations currently in the article add up to GNG, both in number and in content. --MelanieN (talk) 09:41, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The quotes about him in books and major newspapers strongly demonstrate that he is notable. That Boston named a park about him also strongly indicates that he is notable. Cunard (talk) 10:23, 4 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep - Pretty clearly a delete if we stick to the POLITICIAN high bar (insufficient elected office). However, the fact that he is the namesake of a Boston park tips me the other way in this specific instance. Carrite (talk) 17:09, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.