Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Claudiu Teohari


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus defaulting to "keep". I would like to note though that references to sites like Youtube and IMDB as of https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Claudiu_Teohari&oldid=599720790 revision were either copyright violations (Youtube showing TV shows) or unreliable. De728631 (talk) 13:51, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Claudiu Teohari

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There isn't a bit of evidence this individual might be encyclopedically notable. Let's look at the "sources". Actually, in the interests of sanity, let's exclude the YouTube videos, the Facebook page and "BloguLuTeo". So we have:


 * IMDb entry, which proves nothing
 * Dead link
 * Blog post
 * Video of one of his shows
 * Passing mention in an article on Sorin Ovidiu Vântu
 * Passing mention in a blog post about Pablo Francisco
 * Press release about the same Pablo Francisco show
 * Yet another press release on the same show
 * Blog post
 * Two posts from the same blog
 * Three news releases on a TV show of his

Clearly, the level of coverage on this individual comes nowhere near the bar set by WP:GNG. - Biruitorul Talk 01:46, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete It's not just the level of coverage that determines inclusion. You can have a half dozen lengthy articles in the local paper about your grandmother because she won the pie bake contest a couple years in a row at the county fair. That doesn't equal WP:N though. And sources aside there is nothing asserted in this article that rings the notability bell. The appropriate standard here is WP:Entertainer and the subject just doesn't come close. As for those extensive sources, most fail WP:RS rather badly. The few that don't are trivial. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:26, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep Changing vote based on added sources, | discussion by cutkiller and | further discussion involving Mikeman67. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:49, 14 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep
 * Link isn't dead, works fine, maybe it's your Internet connection?
 * Iqool.ro is not a blog it's a weekly student magazine. http://maimplic.ucoz.ro/news/internship_de_trei_luni_la_revista_studenteasca_iqool/2013-07-16-55
 * Voyo.ro is the largest video-on-demand service in Romania, I think having a stand up special featured on there might establish that he's a notable individual.
 * Again, the fact that he was the host of a weekly show on one of Romania's biggest television networks at the time, might establish him as notable.
 * Not a blog, weekly local publication in Târgu Mureș
 * Kamikaze posts is a prestigious national Romanian satire publication. Nowhere near a blog.

I've added sources including interviews on Antena 3, Gândul, a number of press releases from Hotnews.ro, Mediafax and Adevărul, all major Romanian press institutions. As Romanian press has come to be close to non-existent, finding reliable sources is getting harder and harder and I think being mentioned by four mainstream Romanian media outlets and interviewed in other two, qualifies him as notable. The Facebook page is only there as his website, the YouTube videos to source some of the subjects he usually discusses and the "BloguluTeo" link is to establish Doug Stanhope and George Carlin as influences on his comedy style, as he considers them to be. Not one of those links was there to establish him as a notable individual.cutkiller (talk) 15:01, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Please note that student newspapers rarely confer or confirm notability for our purposes, and press releases virtually never do. Peridon (talk) 15:14, 21 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete So far it does not seem notable. Does not pass WP:Entertainer or WP:GNG with what is shown. -- Alexf(talk) 14:46, 21 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment
 * : Added another two comedy specials on voyo.ro, wouldn't being featured in three comedy programs on Romania's largest on-demand video platform (Romanian version of Netflix) qualify him as having had "Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions."? As he's not a professional actor, and television programs in Romania have no interest in stand-up comedy, wouldn't live stand-up stage performances (especially as distributed by a major media and entertainment conglomerate such as Central European Media Enterprises, which ones Voyo) qualify him as notable, as it happens with a lot of American stand-up comedians? - cutkiller (talk) 17:16, 21 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment
 * - 74 minute interview in Adevărul in late 2013. Major romanian newspaper.
 * Third and and fourth voyo special in which he's been featured either as a performer or host.
 * Interview for Gândul, one of the largest newspapers and media outlets in Romania, with prestigous Romanian journalist Lucian Mândruță.
 * Interview for Antena 3, the largest news televison in Romania and a local CNN affiliate. - cutkiller (talk) 17:43, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:46, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:46, 23 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 15:31, 3 March 2014 (UTC)




 * Delete . Amount of sources right now (including many from youtube) appear to be a WP:MASK. None of the links provided before establish requirements of WP:ENT. As mentioned before, press releases do not establish notability. If there were some articles posted that covered subject I could reconsider, but couldn't find anything personally. mikeman67 (talk) 21:07, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. After further comments from cutkiller, I'm no longer convinced he doesn't meet GNG. It does appear he has coverage in major newspapers, and some of his work has been featured on a Romanian video site. However, it isn't clear to me if the news sites have Teohari as their subject, or Sector 7, or if the coverage is substantial enough. I'd like to see more Romanian speakers weigh in, if possible. mikeman67 (talk) 04:30, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It appears the comment in question referred to this interview and this one. I confess I lacked the patience to watch until the end, but from what I saw, in the first video, the subject opined on the topic of Freemasonry in Romania and the (small, in his view) degree of influence it wields over the country. In the second, he appeared alongside another comedian, and both opined on the stand-up profession before veering to other topics. This is all well and good, but appearing in television interviews does not establish notability. The interviews aren't even quotable (as far as I could tell), and you'll note the article as it stands does not attempt to quote them - the appear as part of a long series of footnotes in the lead section. WP:MASK comes to mind. - Biruitorul Talk 04:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Interesting, thanks for pointing that out, I didn't realize that. There's also that link on Adevarul though that looks like some coverage. What about the videos on voyo.ro? Would that not be enough to meet WP:ENTERTAINER #1? mikeman67 (talk) 04:56, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Adevărul: to some extent, there is usable material at that link, but given that Teohari was interviewed alongside one of his colleagues from the stand-up group Sector 7, given that the text is mainly about Sector 7, and finally given that Sector 7 is (I would say) notable, that would best be used at... Sector 7 (comedy act).
 * My problem with the voyo links is three-fold. 1) Does video on demand, as opposed to conventional television, meet the WP:ENT criteria? 2) Is it enough to link directly to the company that created the videos? Shouldn't we expect there to be independent third-party coverage of his participation in the shows? 3) Even given 1 and 2, note the wording: "significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions". We definitely would need independent verification that his roles are significant and that the productions in which he appeared are notable. I know cutkiller has told us how important voyo is, but we really should get some concrete evidence for that. - Biruitorul Talk 05:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * 1)If Bad Samaritans or Hemlock Grove, released only as a video on demand series by Netflix, are notable, I think that establishes the fact that video on demand could also meet WP:ENT criteria. 2) I've added a link to an interview with fellow comedian Andrei Ciobanu, where he mentions his own special with voyo.ro and also Teohari's special with the same streaming service. Romania is never going to have press outlets specializing in local internet-streaming programming and major publications are just not interested in comedy specials, at least for now. I don't think that makes Romanian stand-up comedy or Teohari not notable. 3)He's a featured performer in the stand-up special and a presenter and occasional improv performer in the improv specials. I think that establishes the fact that his roles are notable. Not sure about how "important" voyo is. Should I include articles about voyo being the largest video on demand streaming platform in Romania right now and it being owned by Central European Media Enterprises in an article about Claudiu Teohari? Would the fact that the Youtube series he's hosting ([]) gets over 100,000 views on almost every episode qualify him as having "a large fan base or a significant "cult" following."? (WP:Ent) cutkiller Talk 02:50, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Bad Samaritans appears non-notable - I note the lack of sources, while Hemlock Grove is; but this veers into WP:WAX territory. The question, I suppose, is whether Teohari's shows pass WP:WEBCRIT, and I see no evidence they do.
 * 2) The link helps establish that Sector 7 is notable, but that's about it. The rest is speculation: there may well be notable Romanian stand-up comedians, but that doesn't mean their notability can't be proven by the usual way. In fact the notability criteria we have are the only ones for determining whether an article gets kept. Plus, we are talking about Romania, a country with a very active press and Internet, not some undeveloped, low-literacy country in the heart of Africa where a significant comedian really might have trouble establishing notability via the Internet.
 * 3) No, material about voyo doesn't belong in Teohari's biography, but if voyo is that significant, should it too not have an article? And as for YouTube, see WP:BIG for that.
 * 4) In sum, we keep getting a lot of trivia thrown at us, but nothing can hide the fact that at this point, we are dealing with a vanity biography, not one of an individual whose notability is clear through the criteria specified at WP:ENT or WP:BIO. - Biruitorul Talk 03:43, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) Your original question was "Does video on demand, as opposed to conventional television, meet the WP:ENT criteria?" - the reason I was trying to establish notability of video on demand being notable as opposed to conventional television. While we're on the subject, isn't Realitatea TV, whre Teohari hosted his own television show in 2009, convetional television and also notable?
 * 2) The fact that Sector 7 is in the title does not necessarily mean that the whole 70 minute interview is just about Sector 7 and not about Teohari and Gheba as stand-up comedians on their own. Does this mean that Sector 7 might deserve a Wikipedia entry? Maybe so. But I don't see how it makes Teohari non-notable. There's also a Gandul interview with Lucian Mândruță where Teohari is interviewed on his own, not as a part of Sector 7. I'm not sure how a racist comment about African countries being illiterate helps the discussion, nor am I sure how deeply subjective remarks such as "a very active press and Internet" are of significance. I would call a country where major press outlets such as Gandul, Cotidianul or Ziua are being forced to either shut down or switch to online-only platforms or others such as Evenimentul Zilei and Jurnalul Naţional are being forced into bankruptcy anything but "very active". You said earlier that you lack the patience to watch these interviews, so I don't know how can you be so sure that they're not relevant to the subject. I've also added an article in Adevărul that describes Teohari, together with fellow comedians Costel Bojog and Viorel Dragu, as being "the most well-known comedians in Romania".
 * 3) Are you saying that every subject that has not yet gotten an article on Wikipedia is non-notable? cutkiller Talk 16:06, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I will start by responding to your slanderous accusation of having made "a racist comment about African countries being illiterate". I actually said "low-literacy", and the facts bear that out. I would say that in the modern world, a literacy rate of 70% or under is low. Let's see who fits the description, shall we? Mali (28%), Burkina Faso (29%), Niger (29%), Sierra Leone (35%), Chad (35%), Ethiopia (39%), Senegal (39%), Guinea (41%), Benin (42%), The Gambia (50%), Haiti (culturally if not geographically African, 53%), Guinea-Bissau (55%), Mozambique (56%), Ivory Coast (56%), Central African Republic (57%), Mauritania (58%), Liberia (61%), Togo (61%), Nigeria (61%), Madagascar (65%), DR Congo (67%), Uganda (67%), Burundi (67%), Tanzania (69%), Djibouti (70%), Angola (70%). Sure, not every low-literacy country is in Africa: Afghanistan is at 28%, Bhutan at 53%, Pakistan at 55%; and yes, there are fairly literate societies on the continent (South Africa, 93%; Seychelles, 92%; Zimbabwe, 91%; Lesotho, 90%). But there is a definite pattern: African countries tend to have low literacy rates, and consequently a smaller market for news readers. Some 98% of Romanians can read, so that is not really a factor in Romania. Sorry if you don't like the facts, but just waving them away as "racist" is not a valid debating tactic.
 * Supposing video on demand shows can in principle be notable, that in no way implies Teohari's show fits the "significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions" requirement. Moreover, no, not every notable topic has an article on Wikipedia, but simply repeating who owns voyo or how big it is does not do much for establishing its notability.
 * About the Mândruță interview and the Antena 3 one: the point is not that the interviews occurred. Anyone can be interviewed on television and be forgotten the next day. The point is if they can be quoted so as to boost Teohari's claim of notability. If all he does is talk about Freemasonry, then no. If there's more, quote it. Simply adding a link to show he was interviewed is meaningless. - Biruitorul Talk 15:28, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Fascinating as it may be, the discussion is not about the literacy rate of African countries. If you read my comment carefully, I was asking how is it relevant for a Romanian comedian being notable or not that a number of countries in Africa have issues with literacy. Saying "Romania is more literate than a number of countries in Africa, therefore it has a larger market for newsreaders" does not, in itself, constitute an argument that Romanian press does, indeed, satisfy said market, making it "very active" as you call it, especially since I provided a number of links to articles discussing the serious financial trouble that multiple major press institutions in Romania are confrunted with nowadays. It's a simplistic approach and bringing up low-literacy in Africa in a debate about a Romanian comedian's notability is, if not racist, at least inappropriate. I provided one of the reasons it might be hard to find a lot of interviews and articles about Teohari in major publications (and links to back my claim), your argument was "some African countries have low-literacy, Romania does not". It's like saying "African countries are torn with civil war, Romania is not, therefore Romania has more press outlets that you can quote from". Since you bring up debating "tactics", yours is a recurring logical fallacy known as relative privation (the "it could be worse" argument), simply put, you're trying to make a reasonable judgment based on extreme cases.


 * What about hosting his own show on Realitatea TV in 2009? As Realitatea TV is, according to you, significant because it has an article on Wikipedia, and he was the host and creator of the show, does that not qualify him as having had a "significant role in a telelvision show? I've added another link, an interview in Evenimentul Zilei that describes him as "the host of the Realitatea TV series După bloguri and a stand-up comedian and a third piece in Adevarul that says he's the host of the Realitatea TV show. As for other productions, what about headlining weekly shows in comedy clubs in Bucharest since the mid 2000s? As I've pointed out, the fact that he's not an actor nor is he intending to become one, does not qualify him to appear in other stage productions other than stand-up or improv comedy shows. An Esquire profile describes him as "being a stand-up comedian since late 2003 and having had over 1000 shows". Another article on entertainment portal Metropotam says that "Pablo Francisco's management chose Teohari to open for Francisco's Bucharest show".


 * There are a number of other references about him doing sold-out shows throughout Romania during the years. The Mândruță interview starts by describing him as "Claudiu Teohari - comediant" not "Sector 7 member" or "Freemasonry expert". The discussion about Freemasonry and Illuminati that follows is clearly sarcastic and meant to be funny, in no way an actual serious commentary on any of these two subjects. He even mentions at 3:58, that he has a routine about Freemasonry. A comment about the state of traditional media in Romania is madeby Teohari himself in this interview at 5:29 where he says: "When I say public discourse, I mean traditional media, or whatever is left of it. Things that haven't died yet."


 * The 74 minute video interview with Adevarul starts out by introducing Teohari as "one of the most well known stand up comedians in Romania" (2:50). At 14:50 one of the interviewrs asks him about the difference between virtual audiences and hecklers he encounters at stand-up shows. The written summary even quotes Teohari talking about his stand-up work and being interested in the specific way people laugh at his shows. It's quite obvious that he's also being interviewed as a stand-up performer, not only as a member of Sector 7. Now I'm starting to wonder if you watched/read any of these interviews.


 * I'll be the first one to admit that I'm not a frequent Wikipedia editor, so I don't know how to add quotes to a reference list in an article, so I've quoted them manually here.cutkiller Talk 04:25, 12 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment Why does everyone seem to focus on the youtube links and press releases and nobody looks at the lengthy interviews done with this individual by several major Romanian press institutions? I really need to say this again, I've included the press releases and youtube links to establish some facts about him, not to establish notability per-se. That's why I included a bunch of other reliable, non-trivial, sources. Any Romanian speakers out there? cutkiller (talk) 07:55, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete, as the rationale of a Romanian speaker. The bulk of the material sourced is trivia coverage, not even national news, and the article still is a vanity piece. A collective article on Sector 7 would be within policy at this moment (and it is the group, not the individual members who have so far attracted [some] media attention); but Mr. Teohari himself cannot claim standalone encyclopedic relevancy, not in any case at this stage in his career. Dahn (talk) 12:46, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment how is an interview with Lucian Mandruta for Gandul and an invitation by Cristina Topescu in an Antena 3 (both as himself, not part of Sector 7) television show not "national news"? Also, how does appearing in 4 Central European Media Enterprises comedy specials as a featured performer not qualify him as ""Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions."? (talk) 19:20
 * Keep We do not require that The New York Times or Washington Post cover a comic in Romania, and notable to Romania through Romanian coverage is notable enough for Wikipedia. Article can definitely benefit from cleanup for style and format, yes... but deletion of notable topics rarely serves the project or its readers.  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 18:40, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * A desperate straw-man argument if I ever saw one. No one here has mentioned the Times or the Post. Of course Romanian-language coverage would be sufficient to establish notability, but it's not sufficient to simply assert that such coverage exists. If you wish to demonstrate notability, it would help your cause to point to specific sources and say specifically how they indicate the subject passes WP:BIO. - Biruitorul Talk 04:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions.  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 18:54, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * (sigh) No more "desperate" than not calling into account the nominator's dismissal of sources. I stated simply as I did to remind him that sources must be considered for suitability even if a Romanian notable (even if only just so) is not covered in mainstream US press. I really need not repeat the postings of sources by others nor argue about it if I agree that just enough are suitable and meet WP:BIO. Thanks,  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 06:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.