Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Clayton McKinney


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. There are decent arguments made by editors on both "sides" here and it seems that the analysis of a subject against WP:ATHLETE is more subjective than perhaps it is intended to be, but the majority of !votes seem to in favour of deletion and the majority back up their opinion with appropriate guidelines and interpretations thereof. HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   01:42, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Clayton McKinney

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

I created the page, and it turns out he is not notable, and this article needs to be deleted. Appeared on the Ultimate Fighter, but lost his fight and was eliminated. RapidSpin33 (talk) 03:15, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 13:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Speedy Keep See Articles for deletion/Joseph Henle for a similar explanation. As per WP:ATHLETE, this BLP qualifies and has notability for being in a very notable MMA television show, as well as a notable event in destroying a rival competitors' nose. Paralympiakos (talk) 14:44, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete Subject has only a handful fights, nearly all in non-notable, local promotions (Cage Warriors is borderline to me); therefore, IMO, does not compete on the "fully professional level" of the sport as per WP:ATHLETE. Appeared on a reality TV show and gets eliminated in the first round, also not notable. --TreyGeek (talk) 15:18, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The fact the three fights were PROFESSIONAL fights means that he fits the criteria. Also, he's fought at the highest level of MMA (UFC in the Ultimate Fighter). He totally meets criteria and is therefore notable and should be kept. Paralympiakos (talk) 15:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:ATHLETE says a person must "have competed at the fully professional level of a sport" (emphasis mine). Three fights in local promotions, IMO, does not qualify as fully professional.  If it were, then the yahoo who fights every weekend at the VFW for $50 is also a notable professional MMA fighter.  Matches on TUF are exhibition matches and thus, IMO, are not fully professional level matches.  --TreyGeek (talk) 18:22, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Surely you of anyone should realise who farcical the "exhibition" tag for TUF actually is. The only reason for it is so they don't have to realise the results. It's still a professional bout, even if it isn't recorded on permanent fight records. Also, with the athlete section, it's if they've competed at a notable show. McKinney hasn't, with the exception of Cage Warriors, which if I'm right was an American expansion of the English promotion (that is the [now] top promotion in England). Also got to take into account his opponents, for which there are two notables. Now the athlete definition is, as stated, about teh notability of the organisation competed in. UFC/TUF is the top level. Paralympiakos (talk) 18:27, 22 May 2010 (UTC) The vote by TreyGeek was canvassed, as RapidSpin only invited him to vote on this matter. As such, it should probably be disregarded. Paralympiakos (talk) 18:56, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I asked TreyGeek because he is the only person I know on Wikipedia. RapidSpin33 (talk) 23:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Didn't ask me! You know me, but I had to find out about this through page navigation because you didn't inform me, as you were supposed to in the guidelines for AFDs. You should also know a few of the names that regularly pop up, such as BrendanFrye or Justinsane15. Paralympiakos (talk) 11:26, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do know you but I didn't ask because I assumed some bot would tell you. I'm still learning about the rules around here man, calm down. Actually, I've never seen those names. RapidSpin33 (talk) 15:05, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Despite how it may seem, I am calm, I just wish you'd read WP:ATHLETE as Paraisy, McKinney, Henle and Lynch all pass it, giving them notability. Instead, I'm having to battle to keep these articles. Paraisy shouldn't have even been deleted. 3 vs. 1 isn't consensus in my book. Paralympiakos (talk) 17:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete I don't believe he qualifies under WP:ATH, yet. TUF is not the UFC, they're competing for a UFC contract.  This means it's really a tryout.  I don't consider an athlete to be "fully professional" unless he can make his living as a competitor--that's why minor league baseball players are not generally considered notable.  So far I don't see that this guy is there yet. Papaursa (talk) 15:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That's where you're wrong. They're all under contract, all 14 of them. However, the ones who don't get past the first round are released. They aren't fighting for a contract, as they're already under contract and the quarter finalists are always invited back and get AT LEAST one fight. They're fighting for a SIX FIGURE contract. Therefore, I'd say your argument was void. Paralympiakos (talk) 15:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. Just curious, are they under UFC fight contracts or TV contracts?  Either way, that doesn't show that they qualify as "fully professional", at least as I understand it. Papaursa (talk) 15:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A UFC contract is a UFC contract, whether it's for fighters to compete in a numbered event or a Spike event (UFC Fight Nights, The Ultimate Fighter or The Ultimate Fighter finale). All of them are valid contracts, but they are under released clauses, as those who are eliminated in first rounds are released from contracts. Be that as it may, McKinney will highly likely be released, but the very fact he's fought notables and been a part of the UFC, means he passes WP:ATHLETE. Paralympiakos (talk) 15:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If you can show me that he makes enough money just through fighting to support himself, I'll happily change my vote. This isn't personal. Papaursa (talk) 15:23, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, bit of an awkward one to prove and one that really I can't. Can we prove that for anyone other than saying that it's their full time job? I really don't have any proof, nor do I for the very top MMA fighters. The only reason we know that other MMA fighters are supported have it as a living is the payout figures that are released. Not sure how you'd want me to prove it. Paralympiakos (talk) 15:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mike Cline (talk) 08:56, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Saying speedy keep here just broadcasts you're not familiar with AfD, or what speedy keep actually means. There's nothing wrong with this nomination, and it's hardly a speedy keep. That said, because we have such a loose athlete criteria policy (that's how it is), I think this individual meets it. So, run of the mill Keep. It doesn't do your cause any favors to claim "speedy keep" when everyone familiar with this process knows that's absurd. Just add the sources, make the case, and if for some reason the logic doesn't prevail, go to deletion review. But don't exaggerate, it just backfires. Shadowjams (talk) 09:23, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - fails WP:N and WP:ATHLETE - as per TreyGeek - Claritas § 16:06, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

How on earth is 4 vs. 2 consensus? Paralympiakos (talk) 01:43, 6 June 2010 (UTC)