Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cloud9 (team)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus herein is for article retention. North America1000 01:19, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Cloud9 (team)

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

No indication of notability is given. Notability tag was removed without any effort made to show notability. TexasAndroid (talk) 18:49, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep, pay attention to the talk page. Just to reiterate my points - C9 is one of the most notable eSports team outside of Korea, next to TSM, fnatic, Team Dignitas, Ninjas in Pyjamas and other notable teams. Being the competitors in the top North American and World tournaments in Dota, LoL, Smash and GO as well as the new games HotS, Hearthstone and Halo: The Master Chief Collection. According to http://www.esportsearnings.com/teams they are the 12th highest earning team calculated by winnings (liable to change)


 * The intrinsic problem is that articles like this straddle WP:CREATIVE, WP:ATHLETE, WP:COMPANY and WP:ENT. The frontline gamers who are known both as entertainers and eSports Competitors, if we cross WP:PORNBIO into this where to be notable you need to have awards and substantial investment into a scene, then C9 have fulfilled this. Per WP:ENT, They even have a significant cult following as can be shown in the support present like in their recent performance in the NA LCS Springslit. Per WP:COMPANY there is even more Secondary and tertiary coverage to C9. Ideally WP:ESPORTS task force needs to come up with guidelines on this, but due to the only editors working on WP:ESPORTS articles being the coverage is sparse, so just give it a WP:CHANCE, don't WP:DEMOLISH and allow for some WP:POTENTIAL.


 * http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3017401/The-girls-glory-videogames-America-s-nerds-infiltrating-South-Korea-s-surreal-million-dollar-world-gaming-bedroom-geeks-transformed-heartthrobs.html
 * http://www.dailydot.com/esports/cloud9-league-of-legends-challenger-team/
 * http://na.lolesports.com/na-lcs/2015/sprplayoffs/teams/cloud9


 * And some More
 * http://www.pcgamesn.com/why-the-lcs-just-gave-us-the-best-weekend-in-its-history-and-what-it-means-for-pro-league-of-legends
 * http://www.gamespot.com/articles/c9t-yusui-i-think-we-have-the-highest-amount-of-in/1100-6426693/
 * http://esports.inquirer.net/home/6495/rave-visas-approved-in-time-for-the-summit-3-redemption-votes-still-ongoing/
 * http://statenews.com/article/2015/04/e-sports
 * https://uk.news.yahoo.com/gfinity-uk-esports-arena-pictures-inside-britains-first-170436208.html#LFUOQgS
 * http://www.engadget.com/2015/04/03/inside-gfinity-esports-arena/
 * http://www.ausgamers.com/news/read/3496509/cloud9-acquires-smite-world-championship-winners-cognitive-prime
 * http://pt.ign.com/esports/16033/news/team-solomid-e-fnatic-sagram-se-campeoes
 * http://halo.jeuxonline.info/actualite/47616/halo-championship-series-presentation-equipe-cloud-9
 * http://www.pcgamesn.com/dota/cloud9-valve-announce-invitees-dota-2-international-2014
 * http://www.godisageek.com/2015/02/cloud-9-tempest-disqualified-from-challenger-series/
 * http://proplay.ru/news/23321/
 * http://www.millenium.org/lol/accueil/actualites/incarnati0n-pourrait-coacher-cloud9-incarnation-aurait-ete-contacte-pour-etre-coach-chez-cloud-9-120660


 * --- :D Derry Adama (talk) 22:59, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep As DerryAdama has pointed out Cloud9 has had pretty extensive coverage, including in some mainstream outlets. I've noticed that a number of esports articles end up getting nominated for deletion by an editor who is presumably unfamiliar with the subject. That being said I'm going to see if I can draft up some esports notability guidelines so it's a bit clearer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prisencolinensinainciusol (talk • contribs) 04:52, 21 April 2015‎ (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 12:20, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:21, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:21, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment - I spot checked a few of the references, and many of these are extremely trivial passing mentions. For example, this Yahoo source listed above is extremely short, and only mentions the name Cloud 9 - nothing else - in the article. That's not significant coverage, so that source wouldn't go towards proving it meets the WP:GNG. Still undecided personally, just wanted to encourage people to look closely at the source, and don't just assume there's enough coverage because someone blasted a huge list of sources. Sergecross73   msg me  15:03, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Same with this Engadget article. Yes, its a RS, but very little of the article is about Cloud 9, and of that already small part, much of it is a few direct quotes from one of their members rather than any coverage on them. And the IGN source? Less than 2 sentences of it actually discuss Cloud 9 itself. I hope there are better sources out there, so far every one I'm checking is very trivial coverage...  Sergecross73   msg me  15:05, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Redirect to League of Legends Championship Series or another competition article, maybe Dota? I reviewed all of the above sources. The only ones that matter for our purposes (secondary, reliable, independent sources) are:


 * http://www.dailydot.com/esports/cloud9-league-of-legends-challenger-team/
 * http://www.gamespot.com/articles/c9t-yusui-i-think-we-have-the-highest-amount-of-in/1100-6426693/ – an interview, so doesn't constitute secondary reporting
 * http://www.ausgamers.com/news/read/3496509/cloud9-acquires-smite-world-championship-winners-cognitive-prime – could work, but I'm concerned about reliability, no editorial policy


 * All the other stuff was passing/non-dedicated mentions or unreliable sources. At most, the reliable ones of the lot could be used to source a few sentences on the team's sponsorships, but not much more. I'm willing to change my mind if others can find articles from vetted video games sources. Myself, I found only passing mentions in the WP:VG/RS custom Google search—not nearly enough to justify an article. I'd entertain a redirect to one of the competitions as a useful search term, but I'm not seeing enough to write a sourced article on the team, as is. And for the whole content guideline discussion above—the only relevant guideline for this article type is the general notability guideline: either sources exist or they don't. In this case, the sourcing is very thin. Please ping me if you find more (non-English and offline) sources. czar ⨹   20:53, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
 * with the custom search; did you search Cloud 9 or Cloud9 because Cloud 9 doesn't bring any relevant results but "Cloud9" does. Showing IGN, Kotaku, PC Gamer and gamestar.hu on the first page. Then miastogier.pl, polygon.com and 4gamer.net on the second.--- :D Derry Adama (talk) 00:44, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Both (as well as other variants), but I also established that having a bunch of search hits from IGN, Kotaku, doesn't actually mean that the subject was covered in any meaningful way. I reviewed the sources and only listed those that I thought mattered towards the subject's case. The rest were passing mentions and/or had just as much coverage about a number of other non-notable teams. czar ⨹   02:50, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to agree with you here. A ton of trivial mentions, very little significant coverage. I'd recommend a redirect as well, though I don't know what the best target would be... Sergecross73   msg me  13:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I added League of Legends Championship Series as my suggested target. From the coverage, the team is best known for their League and Dota competition, so one of those where they're actually mentioned by name would be best. I chose the former. czar ⨹   13:43, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually redirecting is an incredibly poor idea, as alone there are six other teams not including the LCS team in six different games. People coming here may be looking for information on the match fixing by C9 in the CS:GO sphere
 * http://www.dailydot.com/esports/match-fixing-counter-strike-ibuypower-netcode-guides/
 * which was quoted by http://www.pcgamesn.com/counter-strike-global-offensive/valve-confirms-csgo-match-fixing-allegations-issues-bans-to-seven-players

The Dota team is the current record holder for the longest competitive game ever
 * http://kotaku.com/we-just-witnessed-the-longest-dota-2-match-ever-1692715512
 * http://www.dailydot.com/esports/cloud9-scaryfacez-longest-game-dota/
 * There is plenty of coverage from reliable eSports sources like the DailyDot, but your search doesn't curate them as most of the Gaming news sites don't give much coverage to eSports, other than saying it exists.
 * --- :D Derry Adama (talk) 23:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * People also come for all sorts of things we don't provide. The idea of a redirect is to provide a reasonable result for someone looking for the subject, which the above redirect would do. This said, I dug around in your sources again (had seen the Kotaku article and pcgamesn has no hallmarks of reliability). http://www.dailydot.com/tags/cloud-9/ would be very useful if we considered Daily Dot reliable. I've brought the site up for consideration at WT:VG/RS. czar ⨹   00:23, 23 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep. The Daily Dot looks like it'll be added to the list of vetted video game sources and their wide Cloud9 coverage easily brings the subject past the general notability guideline. .  czar ⨹   13:15, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep Redirect - per Czar, and my commentary above, to his redirect suggestions. Its a plausible search term, but right now, a vast majority of the coverage is extremely trivial. Redirect for now, and maybe spin it out to its own article if it gets a few more sources that are not first party, not trivial, and reliable, like the types of sources found at WP:VG/RS. Sergecross73   msg me  14:12, 22 April 2015 (UTC) The initial spotchecked sources did not meet the definition of "significant coverage", but the ones pointed out by Czar and Hahnchen do, so I'm find with keeping now.  Sergecross73   msg me  14:30, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I've found quite a few reliable sources focused on C9 that I'm starting to put in the article. I have no idea how everyone managed to find so few. There's even a print source, a cover article in Playboy that featured Cloud9. I think beyond a doubt that the article will be a keep. The only logical RD I can think of would be to something like List of esports teams or something, since C9 has a notable prsence in several games, not to the LCS article.--Prisencolinensinainciusol (talk) 03:10, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - Covered extensively in reliable sources independent of the subject. Playboy OnGamers  Even teams which haven't been covered to this degree should probably be kept, and notability guidelines should more closely follow WP:NSPORT which is more almanac-y in nature than other video game guidelines. - hahnch e n 20:13, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep per sources provided by --- :D Derry Adama shows the subject clearly passes GNG.  Valoem   talk   contrib  17:10, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep per Derry Adama's persuasive arguments. Pax 23:53, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.