Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Coloma Swaan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Ad Orientem (talk) 00:42, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Coloma Swaan

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This painter doesn't seem to have received attention apart from some local newspapers (or the local section of newspapers) commenting at the time on her few exhibitions in or near her hometown.

She hasn't received sustained or significant attention, is not discussed in books, not traded on the art market, not mentioned as an important or influential artist, ... In retrospect, a local artist who, like all local artists do, got very limited attention when they exposed in their hometown, and nothing else. Fram (talk) 14:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. IntoThinAir (talk) 15:10, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Belgium-related deletion discussions. IntoThinAir (talk) 15:11, 31 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete appears to be a memorial page. No in-depth coverage at all, and searches for sourcing turn up zilch in the way of RS that would establish notability.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 15:28, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete Yes, this is a memorial page, as the creator is the subject's grandson. There are some cited newspaper sources, and despite my lack of Dutch they appear to be local coverage as noted by the nominator. No other sources found in a search. Curiocurio (talk) 01:47, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:51, 31 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep (Article author). Dear administrators, my name is Enio Barbaro and I am indeed one of the 17 grandchildren of the subject "Coloma Swaan". I would like to inform that I have been requested by people in the last few years how it comes that a very limited number of sources where to be found on my grand-mother on internet as she has made approximately between 600 to 700 paintings between 1933 and 2005 from which many were sold in France, Italy, The Netherlands and Belgium during expositions in Belgium and the Netherlands between 1942–1996.


 * I am a construction engineer and not an art specialist or critic but I decided after several demands that it was time for me to do research on her art works, after one year of research I could find an important number of newspaper that I obtained from Belgian archives in which she was mentioned. Up to now  I could find 23 articles from the period 1970 to mainly 1980 with a last article from 1992 coming from the Netherlands that I found this week and that I just uploaded to the Wikipedia page. The article from 1992 from the Dutch journal "De Stem" states that an art value estimator of the "Diocese Brede" has estimated that the painting of Coloma Swaan, found in the Church of Philippine in 1992 (The Netherlands) is extremely valuable. The "Diocese Brede" decides in 1992 to a full renovation of the art work of Coloma Swaan, her painting is pictured in the photograph of the newspaper and even a value estimate is made and published within the article. So in my eyes I think the critic made on the subject "local artist who, like all local artists do, got very limited attention when they exposed in their hometown, and nothing else" not appropriate. I can although understand that because of the origin of the articles (all written in Dutch) that it is very difficult to evaluate the value of wat is written in the articles for a native English speaking person. If there is a necessity to translate the articles in English I can take care of that.  I had myself a phone call yesterday with the Dioces of Breda and they will try to deliver me the documents on the assurance that has been requested for the art piece of the subject, the art piece is exposed  today in a building belonging to the diocese Breda - Netherlands.


 * I would also like to put the attention on the fact that for the epoch 1930-1970 it was very rear to see a woman (mother of 6 children), manifesting her in the world of painters who was dominated at that time mainly by men. If you go and see statistically the "list of Belgian art painters" you come to 5% of woman as average. I think for that reason only it is worth taking the consideration of giving a woman of that time also the chance to be recognized as worth full painter. Indeed it is very probably that media and art critics and journalist at that epoch didn't give the necessary attention to make an in-depth study to put a mother of six children in the spotlight. But today we are in the year 2019 so I think a chance should be given to the subject to be worth been mentioned as a woman painter of almost one century ago. She has been explicitly invited in the year 1975 by the Belgian Intergovernmental Energy supplier INTERCOM  in the theme of the "International Women's Year"  as female painter to make an exposition in their premises. She received in 1975 in one week time the attention of 8 Belgian Newspapers who mention her art works and the quality of them. From this eight newspapers three belonged to the leading newspapers of that time "Nieuwsblad", "Het Volk" and the "Gazet Van Antwerpen".


 * For me it stays the full competence of Wikipedia administrators to decide on what belongs or does not in this online Encyclopedia, but I think everyone should get the opportunity of an equal chance on Wikipedia, thus also women from the early 20th century who didn't receive the necessary media attention in that epoch because of gender inequalities at that time. I wouldn't call this a memorial page, but a recognition of a woman painter of the 20th century. A milestone in women's emancipation recognized and stated in 1975 by several leading newspapers in Belgium.


 * Enio Barbaro (talk) 13:26, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. You have it somewhat backwards in your defense of the painter. Women painters didn't get the attention they often deserved until relatively recently. However, if even with the renewed interest in women painters, this painter still hasn't received attention, then she isn't (yet) a notable painter. And yes, I'm a native Dutch speaker, so I can read and judge the articles. The last article you added is a local article about three paintings, one of which is by Swaan. She gets one line in it: "The third, painted by Coloma Leendertsz Swaan, is painted in the style of the Hague School and also shows a view of the harbour of Philippine". That the Hague School was active between 1860 and 1890, and this painting is from 1930 at the earliest, shows that Swaan was not really a modern, avant-garde painter who had any influence on other painters. Fram (talk) 13:55, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. Does anyone object to hatting the above comments relating to the concerns of the article subject's grandson? I see no arguments that help the AFD.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 18:17, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment'. He seems to be making a case for notability in quoting her inclusion in "leading" newspapers of "Nieuwsblad", "Het Volk" and the "Gazet Van Antwerpen".  However, I have no knowledge if these are leading, or if this can be referenced/found. Britishfinance (talk) 12:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
 * These newspapers are (or were) important enough, but they all had, apart from a general news section, a very localized part (i.e. the main part, which confers notability, was the same for all regions, but every small Flemish region got specialized news only for their villages, which doesn't confer notability). Fram (talk) 12:58, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: To allow to substantiate their assertions that relevant sources exist; please provide links or scans (e.g. via Imgur).

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   16:16, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete - Until other sources indicating notability are provided, I do not think this subject passes WP:GNG or WP:ARTIST. Skirts89 (talk) 17:29, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. Dear adminsitrators, I received a personnel message from ThatMontrealIP "Please stop editing Coloma Swaan. You are her grandson as you admit, so you have a very strong WP:COI. I'm sure she was a nice lady, but you are not objective enough to be editing her page, per the above policy." I would like to further work and provide relevant sources (as requested by Sandstein on the 7th of February) to help Wikipedia on the article if I am allowed, but it is very confusing when one tells you to stop working on the article and another person requests more relevant sources. For so far  I know most facts mentioned in the article by myself are backed up with evidence coming from external sources. I see currently a request in the article to add on two places a citation. I have objective evidence (coming from external sources) for both cases, so if you allow me I will link them to the article. --Enio Barbaro (talk) 12:51, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. Sandstein's message was asking you to provide the sources right here on this page, where we are discussing whether your grandmother was notable enough. We would welcome that. My message was about not editing her actual Wikipedia page yourself, as you are not objective when it comes to your grandmother. Hope that helps to explain things.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 14:36, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.