Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Come What May (2008 film)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus.  MBisanz  talk 13:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Come What May (2008 film)

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Non-notable, no sources, written as an advertisement Tmtoulouse (talk) 23:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

It does need citations, but the film is notable. It's been promoted heavily by the American Family Association. --216.47.130.100 (talk) 23:38, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment-Article can not inherit notability from other articles. You must show multiple non-trivial references in reliable sources that discuss this film. Can you find any? Tmtoulouse (talk) 00:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Weak keep - there does seem to be sufficient sourcing out there (e.g., [ http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77628 ]). Scog (talk) 10:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Because World Net Daily and Christian Post are reliable sources? You can not make a NPOV article that only uses WND as a source. Tmtoulouse (talk) 15:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm aware, the Christian Post is a reliable source; World Net Daily I'm less sure about, but it may be reliable in this context, even if not in general. Incidentally, here's another source that was already included in the article, but not visible because of a missing references tag (now fixed): Scog (talk) 14:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,   Sandstein   20:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete Could not find any reliable sources other than the one's left in the article. ErikTheBikeMan (talk) 21:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions.   —PC78 (talk) 01:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep pending sources being added. I'm willing to give this a chance because a) there is reference to the film being given an award and b) I'm getting the sense that some potential sources are being discounted simply because they aren't of the same scope as the New York Times. Obviously this film fits into a particular genre, and is clearly an independent (ie. non-major-studio) production, but I don't see why it can't be a viable article nor disqualified from Wikipedia inclusion. If someone has proof this article is a hoax, however, please PM me and I will change my vote accordingly. But I don't get that vibe. 23skidoo (talk) 05:56, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment after some thought, and due to lack of feedback on this AFD, I wonder if merging with American Family Association might be sufficent, there is one or two sources that could work as part of a larger article. Tmtoulouse (talk) 04:18, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Here is a list of 8 references, which were somehow deleted last week: (There seems to be a strong bias by some Wikipedia gatekeepers against Advent Film Group (AFG)and "Come What May." If that is so, please let us know what else we need to do to prove our viability and acceptance in the marketplace. AFG's Wikipedia entry was deleted last year and now a similar attempt is happening with "Come What May." (George Escobar, Founder of AFG))

1) Audience is very small. (FACTS: The potential audience is quite large: 1.5 million homeschoolers, plus another 10 million former homeschoolers collectivey over the past 30 years. Now add the "Modesty Movement," pro-life/pro-family groups and their constituents, speech and debate leagues, Christian filmmakers. Finally, in the last two weeks, over 3.5 million people received an email blast from the American Family Association about "Come What May", plus promos on over 200 American Family Radio stations. Family Life in Focus has done 3 Radio interviews and features about the movie, as have half-a-dozen other conservative radio programs, ABC News Affiliate in Harrisonburg, VA also did a 5 minute news segment.
 * Delete I don’t see why this film is notable enough to be included in an encyclopedia, even one as extensive as wikipedia. The audience is very small and self selecting due to the ideological nature of the film (politically and socially conservative message, along with it using PHC and moot court as its subjects), so I doubt if it has been viewed by more than a few hundred people.  The film features no notable actors, producers, directors, musicians, or writers.  It was a low budget/low quality feature length film which seems to suggest little interest on the part of donors.  Essentially, this film has had 0 cultural impact and really shouldn’t be included in this resource.  It is little more than a personal venture and has about as much credibility as any long, home made movie.  Its inclusion hurts the credibility of wikipedia as a serious encyclopedia. Perhaps if it is picked up by a larger distributor, the question should be revisited.  (PS: I am a conservative, a former home schooler, and an alumni of PHC so I have no bias or reason for saying any of this aside from it being fact.)165.13.206.245 (talk) 20:18, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment The previous writer makes statements that are obviously quite partial, biased, and uninformed, as follows:

2. I doubt it has been viewed by more than a few hundred people. (FACTS: About 5,000 preview audiences have seen the movie in theaters, performing arts centers and churches. Another 715,000 have seen it online over the last week on GodTube and American Family Association websites. Thousands of Preview Edition DVDs have been sold. More people have seen "Come What May" Group page in GodTube than all of the Group pages combined on their "featured" Group main page, including Group Pages for Obama and McCain. The only exception is the "Wow Music Video" Group.)

3. Little interest on the part of donors. (FACTS: The movie was extremely well received by a large group of investors. 30 accredited investors, as qualified by the SEC, funded the movie through a private placement offering. In October alone, since we launched the online marketing of the movie, "Come What May" has received the endorsement and support of over a dozen large pro-family and homeschooling groups and several dozen pro-life groups across the country. We have received over 1,000 handwritten and email overwhelmingly positive comments about the movie. We would be happy to post these documented comments online in the Wikipedia article to prove the acceptance and viability of this movie.

4. 0 cultural impact (FACTS: Advent Film Group received a 2008 Redemptive Storyteller Award precisely because the judges felt the movie can make a significant cultural impact, showcasing "dating vs. courtship," dramatically explaining "When life begins," and making the legal argument for how "Roe vs. Wade" could be overturned. Here is a quote about CWM from John Erickson, the author of "Hank the Cowdog" which has sold over 7 million copies and a book series that USA Today called the "The best family entertainment in years." Mr. Erickson says: "There is so much to admire about "Come What May:" the music, the acting, the characters, the story. You won't go into depression after viewing it.  It's fresh, honest, and beautiful.  It's more than 'a good Christian movie.  It's a good movie!" -- John R. Erickson, author of Hank the Cowdog"

5. little more than a personal venture... as much credibility as any long, home made movie. (The writer claims no bias by that statement? Really?) (FACTS: The movie has garnered EIGHT distribution offers, including from Provident Films (a unit of Sony). Provident is the distributor of "Facing The Giants" and "Fireproof" both of which were significant Christian hits, earning over $30 million for FTG and over $25 for Fireproof in just six weeks.) We have also received a distribution offer from one of the companies that distributed "Passion of the Christ." Clearly professional distributors are credible and see value in distributing "Come What May." To put the distribution offers in context, there are about 4,000 feature films made a year in the U.S. (studio and independents). Only about 5% of them get a single distribution offer. For "Come What May" to receive 8 distribution offers surely merits some credibility.

6. an alumni of PHC so I have no bias or reason... (SUGGESTION: Please read this alumni's comments objectively and see if you can find no bias.)
 * Comment okay, this whole conversation has nothing to do with an AFD. The issue is that notability and verifiability are not established, there are not enough reliable sources to write an article. Therefore, delete, maybe merge. Tmtoulouse (talk) 23:07, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep I've added the ref from the Christian Post, which I think is a reliable source (moreso than WND anyway) and also added some refs to back up the award the movie has won. I think it's just enough to establish notability. Raven1977 (talk) 01:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.