Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comikaza


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  Sandstein  15:01, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Comikaza

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No indication of notability. Fails WP:ORGSIG, WP:ORGCRIT and WP:SIRS   scope_creep Talk  21:28, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 21:38, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey User:scope_creep, I believe Comikaza is notable by being the very first direct market comic book specialty store in Israel, and by being the publisher of Spider-Man in Hebrew. Both exemplify the material trailblazing impact Comikaza has had in cultivating a lively comics culture in Israel, spawning competitors, artists, events (including hosting the first Free Comic Book Day in Israel, the first comic cons in Israel and the first comics creators signings and appearances held in Israel). It is regularly covered by Israeli press including this great in depth from Haaretz, this nice piece from The Jerusalem Post or these various pieces from ynet (1234), as well as international coverage such as in Timeout where Comikaza is referred to as "The mecca of the Israeli comic community" or this great in depth interview with the current owner on the SKTCHD Podcast. The Eisner nominations were of course covered extensively in comics press, and the owners are known to opine on matters related to the industry. I believe it compares favourably to many stores on this list in terms of notability. --Telecart (talk) 22:30, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It is a generic store, one of a trillion, with no redeeming features, to make it stand out. The Jerusalem Post entry is a single paragraph and is a personnel reflection, not constituting a sufficiently in-depth look to satisfy WP:SIRS. The nomination is just that, a nomination. The rest of the entries are passing mentions or low-quality sources that don't satisfy WP:SIRS or WP:ORGCRIT. They really don't add up to much.    scope_creep Talk  22:53, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep I respectfully disagree, I think the Haaretz coverage especially along with the others meet SIRS &c. requirements for notability. Also, there are not a trillion direct market comic book stores; there are indeed about 2000 in North America (including stores like Paradise Comics or Happy Harbor Comics which have had an entries for well over a decade and still look like tiny stubs), but for a long time Comikaza was the only one in a 2000 mile radius. It has since spawned competitors (yay) but it's a trailblazing store in many respects (how many stores have published Marvel comics?) and has been recognized as such with notable coverage. --Telecart (talk) 14:51, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete As per nom. 1292simon (talk) 07:43, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Reliably sourced, nominated for several prizes. No reason to delete. Attention serial deletionists - there are so many articles on Wiki that are total and utter crap. Maybe focus on those.--Geewhiz (talk) 08:02, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete This is a run of the mill comic book store that doesn't have anything notable about it in relation to WP:GNG or WP:NCORP. Plus, there is a lack of in-depth multiple reliable sources that have coverage on it. Being the "first whatever" or anything else along those lines doesn't make something notable either. Nor do awards. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:25, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: Being the "first whatever" is often a sign of notability. This article has coverage from The Jerusalem Post and The Times of Israel; I think it meets GNG. — Toughpigs (talk) 04:16, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The The Jerusalem Post is a personnel reflection and amounts to a passing mentions only. It is not in-depth and doesn't satisfy WP:SIRS. The The Times of Israel is a press-release, stating Comikaza will be giving away free comic books from indicative of company advertising. It is not even a reference. Lastly being "first whatever" is not a sign of notability on Wikipedia per consensus. It has never been established as a criteria for notability, so to quote it as such, is a falsehood. More so, if it was something truly unique, then it might be classified as a first, but it a comic store. They are 10 a penny and completely generic.   scope_creep Talk  09:01, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The Haaretz article is very in depth and what I first referenced as notable coverage. It is in Hebrew but I ran it through google translate and it's reasonably-readable, enough to cover the points of SIRS --Telecart (talk) 14:28, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * some additional references re: Hebrew Spider-Man by Comikaza (a great interview here), unfortunately all in Hebrew as well. --Telecart (talk) 14:36, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment I forgot about the podcast reference. It is owner talking about his shop, so it is non-rs. Of the 6 references, 5 are primary or non-rs. The last one, which is archive.org. It has archived a forum, so that is non-rs per WP:NOT. Not a single reference amongst them. They all fail WP:SIRS.    scope_creep Talk  17:48, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment may not be a notable company. The sourcing is not trivial and rather bloggy. I will sit this one out for now. My sympathy is with the article. Lightburst (talk) 21:07, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey now, where's the fake outrage about Telecart commenting 16 times? Come on man. If your going to be a shitlord about things, at least have the integrity to be consistent about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:47, 13 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment That is a another WP:SPA came in. User:Telecart. Looking at the sources they have added.
 * States the Tel Aviv comic book store Komikaze published this month the first comic book in the "Spider-Man" series Passing mention. NCORP states at WP:CORPDEPTH standard notices, brief announcements, and routine coverage, such as: specifically of a product or a product line launch, sale, change, or discontinuance


 * Today, a press release came to the system about another welcome attempt to translate Marvel's Ultimate Spider-Man series into Hebrew, this time directly from the new publishing house of the first comic book store, Comicaza. So this is press-release, specifically meant to stymie this Afd with some of the editors present being UPE/Paid. And the reference above also a press-release, as the language is identical.
 * Neither are passing mentions, the whole article is about this. The latter one is titled 'exclusive scoop' and indeed much of the text seems like PR, but it is entirely different text than the other one. They cannot both be PR.--Telecart (talk) 18:43, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It is a press-releases. It states: Today, a press release came to the system about another welcome attempt to translate Marvel's Ultimate Spider-Man series into Hebrew and this time directly from the new publishing house of the first comic book store Comic-Comikaze.
 * and what does the other one say? --Telecart (talk) 19:21, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * This is a shop. This is NON-RS.
 * It is not a shop; this is the website of cultural researcher Eli Eshed. --Telecart (talk) 18:43, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It has icons to take payment by Paypal. It is payment portal, a shop, on somebodies websites, which is itself, non-RS.
 * You can pay for newspapers too. These are patron links. --Telecart (talk) 19:21, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * This is interview with shop owner, also at the shop. So it is NON-RS.
 * I don't know how you know where the interview took place, my guess is it actually took place at the Comics and Animation Festival at the Cinemateq --Telecart (talk) 18:43, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It states: Yossi and Ofra Kunin, owners of the first comic book store in Israel, Komikaze, launched their new subsidiary Komikaze Press at the 4th Animation It is an announcement and non-rs.
 * The piece is not an announcement, but a follow up to the previous release (the other ISF link). --Telecart (talk) 19:21, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

So all we have barely have is one interview that a puff piece and rest are a whole of puff pieces, stuff that fails WP:ORGSIG, WP:ORGCRIT, WP:CORPDEPTH, is a press-release or is non-RS, or is a passing mention. Non-notable. Delete and Salt  scope_creep Talk  16:57, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Completely disagree with your assessment. I am now only more convinced they are notable than I was before. --Telecart (talk) 18:43, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment Telecart. As a SPA you have no idea what constitutes notability.   scope_creep Talk  19:01, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * How rude. You simply have not made a compelling argument that Haaretz, Jpost etc. are not SIRS. --Telecart (talk) 19:18, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Just to add, I mostly contribute to he.wikipedia (translating from English actually, typically) but I do occasionally contribute to en.wikipedia, and have done so for years. I have also never been paid to edit an article in my life. --Telecart (talk) 19:26, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment A review of the 8 references + the the references, offered by User:Telecart
 * 1) Truth, justice and the Israeli way. It states: There's been a huge boom in comics for adults," says Ofra Konejn, founder and owner of Comikaza, Israel's first and biggest comic book store that's also hosting international Free Comic Book Day here in Israel. "There are still comics targeted mainly for children, but there is an uprise in comics that deal with political issues, sometimes with more violent graphics, sophisticated texts and design," she says and then it moves onto something else. Fails WP:SIRS.
 * 2) Like Thunder on a clear day. On the other hand, during the interview with Yossi Kunin, the owner of the "Komikaze" comic book store, which took place over the phone but a few minutes after I returned from a long shift, I suffered from unexplained distraction and lack of concentration Fails WP:SIRS. Not in-depth, independent, reliable not secondary.
 * 3) 2016 Will Eisner Spirit of Comics Retailer Award Nominees!. A nomination. Not a win.
 * 4) Super-comics. Fails WP:ORGCRIT. A description of the business being setup. Not independent.
 * 5) Not just Spider-Man.  Press-release. Fails WP:NOT. Not independent.
 * 6) A day of comic book heaven. Excelsior! Free Comic Book Day returns Saturday. Announcement. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH.
 * 7) The Diamond Retailer Best Practices Awards. No mention on the page. Non-RS.


 * 1. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH.
 * 2. Press-release.
 * 3. Paypal payment icons on a user site. Non-RS.
 * 4. Yossi and Ofra Kunin, owners of the first comic book store in Israel, Komikaze, launched their new subsidiary Komikaze Press at the 4th Animation. An announcement. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH.
 * 5. That last, assuming AGF is likely to be the same standard to references, very low-quality, not independent, failing WP:SIRS, WP:ORGCRIT or is a press-release.   scope_creep Talk  20:01, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment User:scope_creep reverted my edits from this talk page (again, how rude!) wherein I commented on his review of the references. Suffice to say I vehemently disagree with his assessments. The article has multiple WP:SIRS validation for notability. --Telecart (talk) 21:41, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi You messed up the formatting on my block above in a big way. Please put your comments back in, if you require and but don't put them in the block, put them below this comment. Thanks.     scope_creep Talk  21:59, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll add my main points below:
 * Eli Eshed is a renowned and respected pop culture critic and researcher. Independent journalists can have patron links on their websites, I don't see how that alone makes them non RS. We pay for newspapers too, some wealthy people pay for academic endowment as well, etc. This argument is absurd.
 * Like Thunder on a Clear Day - The whole piece is quite an in-depth take, in which the author is describing their experience going to the comics store, the experience with the clerk they met their (some of this undoubtedly isn't translating well), on the phone with the owner, why comics in Israel, the Hebrew Spider-Man, etc. Haaretz is the Israeli equivalent to the NYT. It's perfectly SIRS. The author's reference to Clerks notwithstanding.
 * I fixed the links to the Diamond Retailer Best Practice Award nominations 2019 and 2014. Apologies, not sure what happened there.
 * The ISF interview is not an announcement, the previous ISF post is an announcement. The interview is well after the announcement. It is an interview, independently so, with the context of the release of Spider-Man in Hebrew of course being the scope of the discussion.
 * Super-Comics - Not sure why a description of a comic book business being built in Israel is not independent, though I agree this alone probably does not justify the entry, it's certainly indicative of how unusual the business is and thus independently noteworthy for (of all things) a business/economics newspaper to cover.
 * Obviously, very few stores win an Eisner Award. Most of the stores listed in Category:Comics_retailers have not even been nominated. Would an Oscar nomination (but not win) be considered noteworthy? I believe so.
 * Truth, justice and the Israeli way - There is an entire additional paragraph interviewing with the owner that Scope Creep neglected to mention. The article has substance and focuses materially on Comikaza.


 * In conclusion, I think there is plenty of material here to cover notability requirements. --Telecart (talk) 22:32, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Maybe the back and forth can stop to allow other editors to express an opinion?

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 05:24, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep The coverage passes WP:SIRS clearly indicating that they are a major retailer in this category in that country. Even here in London there aren't many such specialist bookstores. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:25, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Most of the references are made up of announcements, press-releases, wee profile pages, non-rs pages and dependent sources and there is not much coverage outwith those sources. The second point doesn't make any sense, as they're is stores like these all over the place. Perhaps it is a case you that don't actually visit them so you don't know how many there are.   scope_creep Talk  15:06, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * A two-second search finds 12 stores inside the M25 alone. A detail study would find more. There is five stores in Glasgow. So I see it as a generic category. Not a standalone unique entity.   scope_creep Talk  15:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * In Israel there are precisely two. There used to be just this one, for a while the only such store in a 2000+ mile radius. --Telecart (talk) 18:04, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I assume your talking about comic book shops? If so, according to Google Maps there's three. There's also a bunch of book stores. I'd find it hard to believe that the bookstores don't sell comics, manga, toys, games, etc. etc. I know at least in the US these days "bookstore" is kind of a misnomer because they carry a bunch of different things besides books now. Maybe only half if not less of my local Barns & Nobles is books these days. They have a pretty extensive comic and manga section. So, maybe things with the word "comic" in their name are rare, but that shouldn't be the important thing to notability. BTW, their rare in the US also. There's only 2 within a 200 mile radius of where I live and it's a pretty populous area. I don't think either deserves an article for it though. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:52, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yip.   scope_creep Talk  13:12, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * nope, there are definitely only two in Israel: Comics n' Vegetables and Comikaza. CNV have an additional branch. Book stores in Israel are not really like the B&N-style "everything" store you're picturing. For one, they are much MUCH smaller. Steimatzky and Tzomet Sfarim, the two dominant (publisher-owned) bookstore chains in Israel have tiny stores regularly no larger than my kitchen, with a selection you'd typically find at an airport magazine shop. Sure, Steimatzy might have an issue or two of comics in their magazine rack, out of sequence and from 3 months ago, and in recent years they have even started stocking some more trade paperback comics, but I actually attribute this cultural shift to Comikaza's existence. A decade ago this definitely did not exist. You could not go into a book store and expect to find any comics/manga whatsoever. --Telecart (talk) 04:10, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I am quite familiar with specialist book stores as they are the natural haunt of a Wikipedian. This one reminds me of Sefer ve Sefel which I looked at earlier in the year when it was on the main page. We should have articles about all such places as, being patronised by literate people, they will naturally tend to be written about. My !vote stands. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * OMG I can't believe Sefer vs Sefel has a wiki entry!! As a Jerusalemite this takes me back. Loved that place..! (note to self: I need to translate that entry to he.wiki) --Telecart (talk) 04:10, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Zoozaz1  talk 03:29, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. Roller26 (talk) 11:53, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Roller26 (talk) 11:53, 25 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete None of the references meet the criteria for establishing notability. Topic therefore fails GNG/WP:NCORP.  HighKing++ 17:04, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete There is some coverage but IMO not enough, Also a lot of the sources are from facebook. Expertwikiguy (talk) 18:19, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * to be fair, I literally just added those fb links with a new paragraph, they weren't there before. --Telecart (talk) 19:16, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * fb is non-rs.   scope_creep Talk  19:32, 30 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. Per extensive coverage on a national scale in Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post, both considered quality press in Israel. gidonb (talk) 19:46, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This is the Haaretz entry:
 * Ofra and Yossi Kunin belong to a handful of people who believe you can make a living from a comic in Israel: they own Comicza, a successful comic book store in Ramat Aviv? (15 Brodetsky St.? A nurse at Dizengoff Center, OTAKU, has opened a store these days? Alongside the many books and films she offers, you can find inflatable armchairs, stuffed faces, pillows, figurins, boxes, coasters for cups, posters, shirts, bags, wallets, key chains and trash cans, all of which have comic book characters on them.


 * You reckon that is extensive coverage? A product listing with an email address for ordering!!   scope_creep Talk  20:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi User:scope creep, you're slashing the article by 2 out of 4 paragraphs. All coverage in Israel's prime quality newspaper is helpful, the one you quote included. It's brief but a full article about the store and twice as long as you made it appear. And yes, it's an article about a store, of course it will list what you can buy there! What did you expect? The color of the ceiling? There's also the following: In Israel - a young market and limited public and Kippot, garters, comix and vegetables: exciting little stores in Yediot, Israel most-read newspaper. Already enough for WP:GNG before the Jerusalem Post. Withdrawing...? gidonb (talk) 22:12, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * And just a few problems of automatic translation from Hebrew. The store is a she, as this word is female. The sister of the store is its second location in Dizengoff Center. The new location (initially a branch) became a nurse, which is the same word as a sister. There was a third location in Haifa, so this is a former chain and, as someone already mentioned, a novelty in Israel. Hence plenty of coverage. gidonb (talk) 02:59, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Its copyright text, so I couldn't add all of it, roughly half, which doesn't make it coverage. Its all of 280 words and more of the same, a description of the store from a fan. Hardly the in-depth coverage needed to satisfy WP:SIRS.   scope_creep Talk  07:18, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's an article by Avi Shevi, author in the culture section of the prestigious Haaretz and not at all as you suggest. The reactions above are typical to low-quality nominations. These start with a poor or no WP:BEFORE. Often the nominator isn't well versed in the language of the country where they wish to delete articles, gets confused by the references, and cannot find or does not attempt to find sources. When overwhelming sources are found or presented, the nominator starts arguing with those who believe the article should be kept, typically ignoring the breadth of the argument and focusing on just one article they believe can somehow work in their favor or, for example, if some data point in the article was supported by a blog or self-published sources, it can be used to distract from all the rest. To be fair, this is widespread among nominators and delete sayers in general, and doesn't all apply to you. (Someone got upset with me the other day for suggesting a little research before a nomination. It did not work out with the amount of nominations and slowing down for more quality apparently wasn't an option and the article was there so long that the references should have been perfect by now.) The bottom line is that I do not see strong arguments to delete in this discussion. gidonb (talk) 08:00, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, here we go, taking a swipe at me and appealing to emotion when the logical arguments are complete. Who cares who its by, it is still effectively an announcement, a press-release and most of the other references, which were covered above, are a similar bunch of low-quality stuff. Do you think Avi Shevi likes posting an announcement. It is a necessity in the age we live in, for the people who write these newspapers, but that doesn't make it quality information, suitable as a reference. If they weren't struggling to survive, it is unlikely that kind of announcement would have even in the culture section. Does it come as any surprise that most editors make the same kind of emotive appeal at the end, always complaining that a before was never made.   scope_creep Talk  08:40, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * You're holding on to just one article and mischaracterize it as an announcement. It has nothing to do with the announcement. This is an article in the culture pages of Haaretz. You're missing the cultural context. Comic books are a unique branch of literature. Most adults ignore them but there is a niche market for the genre. When such a store is opened, for the first time in the Middle East, in a country that isn't particularly big on comics, this draws attention. The fact that this store exists will be of interest to more people than will actually visit the store. This interest generates many articles in the press. Its history is followed. Their operators are mentioned and, at times, asked questions. What is in there will be described. People will want to know if there is a renaissance of comics in Israel. And if a niche bookstore can survive, maybe there is a future for brick and mortar bookstore in general? If you would focus on all sources, not on your prejudice for one, you would get it. gidonb (talk) 09:08, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Not really, that is pushing the argument to the context that isn't specific to the article, nor the state of the references, nor to WP. Wikipedia isn't here to right great wrongs, nor to help readership numbers in struggling newspapers. It is right and proper the store exists but its existence isn't contingent on having a wikipedia article. They are not connected. Looking at the first references and three additions you posted. I don't believe it drew attention. I think there is mild comment on the store, and bunch of associated PR is what we are getting. If there was detailed interest, there would be feature or statement pieces but there isn't. Instead there is a lots of tiny wee profiles that look suspiciously like wee press-releases, listing location and store information. All of them fail WP:SIRS and/or WP:CORPDEPTH. Lets take a look at three in turn.


 * Ofra and Yossi Kunin belong to a handful of people who believe that it Reads like a press-release.
 * 320 words A short profile page describing the two store, they are profitable at 320 words.
 * 250 words. This looks like a combined press-release. Has location, main people, phone numbers, url, office address. Effectively a brochure. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH. Ita  paid service service, to get your business listed.


 *  scope_creep Talk  12:49, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry but your assertions are extremely weak. The intro shows that you did not understand what I said. I'll take responsibility for that. All three are great articles, of the highest quality, and most-read paid daily in Israel (Israel Hayom passed Yediot because it is free). Signed by their authors. There is nothing press-release-like in any of these. All three are published in printed, national dailies in the culture pages of the respective newspapers. The article by Michal Ramati ("320 words A short profile page describing the two store, they are profitable at 320 words.") is pure analysis of the comics scene in Israel with a central place for Komikaza. After or before stores are covered it is common practice to list their details. True also for restaurants, clubs, books, shows, and other media units. This is not the listing in WP:CORPDEPTH but in addition to passing WP:CORPDEPTH. As I said, this nomination has no merit! gidonb (talk) 14:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.