Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparative Ranks of Apartheid States in Southern Africa


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. Nominator withdrawal (non-admin closure) Goldsztajn (talk) 20:22, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Comparative Ranks of Apartheid States in Southern Africa

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There are no sources cited for this article, which appears to be essentially an unnecessary content fork. "Apartheid States in Southern Africa" is being used to refer to South Africa, South West Africa, and the Bantustans under their apartheid (e.g. South African white) regimes. This list excludes Rhodesia. No source has been provided to demonstrate the significance of tying together these states/territories military insignia of this time period. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:30, 26 February 2020 (UTC) Upon the provision of new sources demonstrating this article's notability, I withdraw my deletion nomination. -Indy beetle (talk) 01:42, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2020 February 26.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 04:51, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete unsourced list that probably fails LISTN. buidhe 05:17, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete as this is a grouping of states that seems to have been put together by the article creator. Mccapra (talk) 07:17, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - topic lacks notability.--Staberinde (talk) 21:16, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename to something like Rank insignia of South African Bantustans. These states and their rank insignia existed. Agree that it needs sourcing but the topic is notable. Someone somewhere may want to know about the military ranks of Venda Gbawden (talk) 05:59, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:09, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:09, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:09, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep. Needs sourcing but clearly notable topic. The suggestion that these states aren't linked is ludicrous. Maybe do some research first? -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:34, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure, it does seem logical to group the military insignia of all these states/territories' troops together, but sourcing (or the lack thereof) doesn't support making the comparison. This is the closest source I've found to supporting this comparative topic, and it appears to be a list of badges, not a comparison of ranks. -Indy beetle (talk)
 * You do know that these states were all set up by South Africa and were not recognised by the rest of the world? How on earth does that not support them being related? Of course they are. It's blatantly obvious. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:42, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do know they were all related to the apartheid regime, but that's not the same as establishing that a comparative list of different military ranks (since the current article title, which is an MOS violation of title capitalisation, doesn't even specify that this is about military ranks) is notable. If one scrolls down to the bottom of this article to the "References" section, one finds that it is filled with links to blog and forum postings of photographs of South African/South West Africa/Bantustan military officers with zero context or broken links . Tying together a bunch of photographs as research and calling it proper sourcing is a violation of WP:Synthesis. Thus far it can't even be established that these are the insignia that was worn by the troops as matched with the ranks. I will gladly withdraw my deletion nomination once reliable secondary sources establishing the notability of a list like this are found. So far I have uncovered none aside from Owen's The Military Badges and Insignia of Southern Africa. The "SOUTH AFRICAN ARMY RANKS AND INSIGNIA" academic article by Radburn makes one a few comments of comparison about badges between South Africa and South West Africa (which are helpful), but that's it. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:26, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The article's title has been changed. Citations have been added to published books about how the military ranks used by the entities are related, through South Africa controlling various aspects of the Bantustan Defence Forces, and the SWATF being an auxiliary to the SADF. Links to uniforminsignia.org have been added for SWATF, Bophuthatswana, Transkkei, and the apartheid South African Army. Uniforminsignia.org is used as a citation for military ranks on near all pages about military rank systems, so this brings the article in question in line with other similar articles. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:58, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
 * That's encouraging enough to erase my concerns about notability, though I must say uniforminsignia.org strikes me as more of an enthusiast run website than a reliable source. I think the academic articles will prove more useful. At any rate, I'll withdraw my deletion nomination.-Indy beetle (talk) 01:42, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment if the consensus is to keep and rename this as something like Comparative Military Ranks in Bantustans then the entries about South West Africa will have to be removed. It wasn’t a Bantustan. Mccapra (talk) 11:04, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
 * It still makes sense to include it for comparison purposes as the "parent" state. In the same way that we tend to include British and American ranks in other rank tables even if they're not directly related for comparison purposes. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:59, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. Source images have been linked in the references section. This page as with other comparative rank pages is collecting related rank systems together to make comparison easily visable. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:21, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
 * A published article referring to various members of the TBVC Defence Forces including their ranks, at the following archive link, has been added as a reference. External links to uniforminsignia.org for Bophuthatswana, Transkei, South West Africa, and South Africa, in line with other articles on military ranks. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:59, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, KaisaL (talk) 08:10, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and improve. Don't see how the subject is not notable. Azuredivay (talk) 20:39, 8 March 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.