Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison of cheetahs, jaguars and leopards


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Vanamonde (talk) 16:26, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Comparison of cheetahs, jaguars and leopards

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Prod removed by article creator. A random comparison of three species based on some superficial characteristics, but excluding other felids with the same or similar charactieristics for unclear reasons (e.g. the oncilla or serval).

This was created as a reaction against the ongoing Articles for deletion/Jaguar versus leopard. Fram (talk) 08:17, 11 September 2018 (UTC) Fram (talk) 08:17, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment This is not a random comparison, as discussed below. Leo1pard (talk) 10:08, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete based on the same arguments as at Articles for deletion/Jaguar versus leopard. "Comparative taxonomy and physiology of Panthera", fine and on firm ground (no cheetahs though...); "Comparison of some arbitrary species that kinda resemble each other", no. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 09:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Add: there's a lot of going-on below about online questions in the vein of "what's the difference between..." - but the fact is that I can unearth these for any two superficially similar animals or types of animals you care to mention - mice and shrews, whales and manatees, birds and bats, arachnids and crustaceans, snakes and legless lizards, on and on. And the answers to that can be found on Wikipedia - in articles on mice, shrews, whales, manatees, etc. An encyclopedia is not in the business of having an article addressing any question someone might ask, but rather collating the material that can be used to answer any question. This ain't Yahoo Answers. You can see the kind of long-term, universal presence a specific "what's the difference between" question needs before it qualifies for article status in Lion vs tiger, and even that is far from uncontroversial (vide two AfDs). -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:05, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Agree with above comments and add: some zoo schools hand out educational material to school kids with the kind of intellectual level of this page. BhagyaMani (talk) 08:42, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Then see what happens next. Leo1pard (talk) 09:21, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Since when is stuff like this  of the school level? Leo1pard (talk) 10:35, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * My above comment referred to the content of this page. These references neither justify this wiki page nor similar comparisons in an encyclopedia. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:56, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * As if your references won't justify what you do elsewhere. The content in all of the references is too complicated to apply to a school level. Leo1pard (talk) 12:49, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * And what about the fact that this article is not about only 2 species, but about 3 species, and that for example, other than the link to this article, there is no information on the cheetah in the article 'Jaguar', or vice-versa, and articles like Leopard and Big cat do not have every specific detail regarding the 3 species, which can be found in scientific publications like this? Leo1pard (talk) 07:21, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment, the same arguments do not apply, and this is not arbitrary, it is WP:notable, as detailed below, and the introduction has been changed since the time you commented to this, to show its notability: "The cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus), jaguar (Panthera onca), and leopard (Panthera pardus) are three species of felids that are known for having yellow or tawny fur marked by spots. Due to their physical similarities, they could get mistaken for one another, and so differences between them have been discussed.  " Leo1pard (talk) 10:38, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * (ec)Well, let's take a look at Porter1894. It mentions the cheetah in comparison to the leopard (p. 137) and to the tiger (p.240), but not to the jaguar. So this book clearly isn't evidence that the comparison of these three is a notable subject. Nowak 1999? Also a rather passing discussion of leopard vs. jaguar, no discussion of keopard vs. cheetah vs. jaguar (or siply cheetah vs. jaguar). Again, not evidence that this three-way comparison is a notable subject. Finally, Nowell Jackson: again, I can't find a comparison of e.g. cheetah vs. jaguar in it, never mind the threeway comparison, but I may have missed it so feel free to give the exact page number where I can find this. Otherwise, I can only conclude that of your three main sources, none have this comparison. Fram (talk) 11:45, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Wrong, Nowell and Jackson did in things like "habitat association", I can see it. Leo1pard (talk) 12:42, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Can you please provide specific page numbers where they did? I see lots of pages about "habitat association", but without being more specific I can't find the page(s) where the habitat association of these three is discussed. Fram (talk) 12:55, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Page 3, which does not just talk about "habitat association", but also their geographic ranges and body sizes (which is what I intend the section 'Physique' to be about), and that is not all. Leo1pard (talk) 13:05, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Page 3 is a table comparing all cats, not just these three. They are not even in the same category... Please provide some specific evidence from reliable sources that the comparison of these three species, as a separate group (not only two of the three, not the three in a list of all cats or all big cats, but just these three) is really a notable subject. Fram (talk) 13:29, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Aside from some links (1, 2, and 3) that I posted already:
 * Elaine Israel: "A LEOPARD, A JAGUAR, AND A CHEETAH?"
 * Van Valkenburgh et al. directly compared the cheetah to the leopard and jaguar, before making comparisons to other named felids. Leo1pard (talk) 16:08, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Animal-related deletion discussions.  —AE  ( talk  •  contributions ) 09:41, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep, this is not a random comparison, it is a WP:notable topic: Leo1pard (talk) 10:05, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * jaguar vs leopard vs cheetah (Pinterest)
 * JAGUAR, LEOPARD & CHEETAH : DIFFERENCES
 * Differences between jaguars, leopards and cheetahs (YouTube)
 * Spot the Difference — Is It a Leopard, Jaguar, or Cheetah?
 * Major Differences Between Cheetah Leopard and Jaguar


 * Jaguar versus leopard:


 * Compare Leopard vs Jaguar
 * Can You Spot the Difference Between a Jaguar and a Leopard?
 * Jaguar vs Leopard | ANIMAL BATTLE (+Lion vs Tiger winner)


 * Cheetah versus leopard:


 * Cheetah vs. Leopard
 * Cheetah vs. Leopard: What's the Difference?
 * Cheetah Vs. Leopard - Know the Differences and Similarities
 * The Difference Between a Leopard and a Cheetah
 * Cheetah vs. Leopard: Do You Know the Difference?
 * Cheetah, Gepard and (or?) Leopard
 * Leopard vs Cheetah
 * Leopard Kills a Cheetah | Tiger vs Tiger
 * When a leopard comes across some cheetah brothers


 * And that is not all. Even WP:reliable sources talk about it: Leo1pard (talk) 10:32, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) Porter said that the jaguar could be mistaken for a "large and thick-set panther" (leopard)
 * 2) Nowell and Jackson compared the rosettes, heads, builds and limbs of the leopard and jaguar.
 * 3) Nowak compared their physiques.


 * On the contrary, it is a random combination of three species. You give us some mentions of two-by-two comparisons, including loads of unreliable ones. You lack reliable comparisons of these three (and only these three), using things like pinterest, youtube, and blogs to make your cause; and you ignore that the same sites you use also give other very similar comparisons you don't use. E.g. compareanimal.com (not a reliable site) has, for the jaguar alone, comparisons with black panther, with lioness and with bengal tiger. Other sites make the comparison with an ocelot So your choice to compare these three and not others is a random comparison based on some superficial similarities. Fram (talk) 11:31, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * No, because the cheetah, leopard and jaguar are considered to be big cats, unlike the serval for example, and I have given my reliable references for that in the content,  with other external links being kept in external links, and I have my reliable references for that. I already put in reliable references like these before you commented that I did not provide any, so I have to dismiss your argument as a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Leo1pard (talk) 11:45, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Like I said above, none of these three sources make this three-way comparison, e.g. Nowak compares (very briefly) the cheetah to the leopard, and to the tiger, but not to the jaguar. Fram (talk) 11:47, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Wrong, Nowell and Jackson did. Leo1pard (talk) 12:40, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I looked more carefully at the WP:RS and don't see key sources that specifically compare the three species. I am agree with the other newer votes that this is a somewhat arbitrary comparison of the three. --David Tornheim (talk) 06:06, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete tentative Keep This appears to be more notable than Jaguar_versus_leopard. Tentative, waiting for other votes.  I also find the title far more encyclopediac.  This isn't some court case.  I believe the title should have an additional Oxford comma per MOS:OXFORD.  --David Tornheim (talk) 10:47, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete For this topic to be worthy of an article, it must have reliable, significant, secondary source coverage, not of cheetahs separately, jaguars separately, leopards separately, or big cats in general, but specifically of comparison of all three of these animals. The list of "sources" above are a collection of random, unreliable, mostly self published internet websites. If a giant list of "sources" contains not a single reliable source, then obviously this isn't a notable topic. – FenixFeather (talk) (Contribs) 20:20, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment, I already said that aside from some links (1, 2, and 3) that I posted already, there are references that directly talk about the issue of cheetahs vs jaguars vs leopards, so this is a WP:Notable topic, not a mere cross-categorization or indiscriminate collection of information, do you need more than these? Leo1pard (talk) 04:31, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
 * None of these links come even close to being reliable sources. – FenixFeather (talk) (Contribs) 00:06, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Scientific journals like this are considered reliable, according to the rules. Firstly the complaint that I did not provide any reliable sources, after I did, and now the complaint that a scientific publication like this is not reliable. Leo1pard (talk) 07:21, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete. FenixFeather more or less described what I was going to say. As with my comments at Jaguar vs leopard, discussing differences in somewhat similar species does not indicate notability, but just something of due weight for an identification section. If anything, this is getting into a non-encyclopedic cross categorization violating WP:NOTDIR. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:39, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment, I already said that aside from some links (1, 2, and 3) that I posted already, there are references that directly talk about the issue of cheetahs vs jaguars vs leopards, so this is a WP:Notable topic, not a mere cross-categorization or indiscriminate collection of infromation, do you need more than these? Leo1pard (talk) 04:31, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Those comments are exactly why deletion is justified. What you are describing and WP:DUE for content within existing articles for standard comparison of species for identification. That doesn't reach any level of individual page notability though. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:55, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I said that this is not a mere cross-categorization or indiscriminate collection of information, and I have my sources for that, which are already in the article, and as stated in the article, "comparisons between them (the cheetah, jaguar and leopard) have been made. " and these are not the only sources that compare the 3. If it had been the case that a comparison between the 3 was not directly mentioned in even 1 source, then what you said, that this is a cross-categorization, would have applied, and can you not see that sources like this are reliable scientific publications? In addition, the article is not WP:biased to any of the 3 mentioned species, but states what sources, including scientific publications like this, say about them, how they compare to each other, like in physical appearance. Leo1pard (talk) 04:52, 13 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep it and the jaguar versus leopard. Both of these articles are encyclopedic. If people need info about the similar look of three cats they can look for on Wikipedia. — Punetor i Rregullt5 (talk) 07:29, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete differences between species are already noted in each of the species articles. LittleJerry (talk) 17:22, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment, other than the link to this article, there is nothing about jaguars in the article 'Cheetah' as of the time that you said this, or anything about cheetahs in the article 'Jaguar'. and like you would often say, the main articles should not always have specific details, and this is not some random choice of species, but meant to detail what sources like this say about all 3, including details that are not in the other articles. Otherwise, do you accept that I would have put in here in the main pages? Leo1pard (talk) 04:53, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete : random choice of species -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:47, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment This is not a random choice of species. For example, Van Valkenburgh et al., in their scientific journal, directly compared the cheetah to the jaguar and leopard, in things like the structure of the limbs. Leo1pard (talk) 04:45, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * About Van Valkenburgh, the only reliable source which touches the actual topic of the article; it can be read here (at least by me, this may depend on your country). There is one sentence comparing the three, on page 25: "Their elongate limbs, slender body, and small heads distinguish them easily from other similar sized felids, such as the leopard or jaguar." That's it. There's an image comparing the skull of the cheetah with that of the jaguar and that of the extinct giant cheetah, but there is no leopard there. There is a reference to a scientifc article comparing the pharynx (and bite force) of the lion, toger, cheetah, jaguar, and domestic cat, again evidence how such comparisons articles could be made for any combination of felids if one uses the very loose "it exists" rules of the keep proponents. If this is the best source, then it will be a very easy delete. Fram (talk) 07:39, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Not anymore, I have added a lot more to demonstrate its notability.    Leo1pard (talk) 10:35, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Indeed, not any more, please. Something like "The man-eating tigers of Sundarbans" has one sentence fragment about the three animals: "Several of the big cats - like the leopard, jaguar, and cheetah - have handsome spots". It continues with "Lions, bobcats and cougars are a nice tawny colour", so I guess that these three will be your next article? Notability is not shown by such throwaway comments, these are not significant coverage. So not This fashion article from the NYTimes, or BBC texts about illegal fur trade. Fram (talk) 11:07, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Other references like these are there, they all talk about the 3 species, if you want, then I could add more reliable references, but you requested for no more, so I in turn would request you to take back this attempt to delete it, I have made edits in responses to what was said, besides having to deal with false allegations like that https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Comparison_of_cheetahs,_jaguars_and_leopards&diff=859051175&oldid=859047403 I did not provide reliable sources] after I did, or that a scientific journal like this is not a reliable source, I may have to make a complaint regarding issues like this, regardless of what happens to this article. Leo1pard (talk) 12:49, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Feel free to complain wherever you want, just be aware that that will also bring your actions to the attention of more editors, which might lead to a WP:BOOMERANG. You again bring up sources which I have already shown to be negligible for this article (van Valkenburgh), or yes, not making a comparison between these three species despite your repeated claims that they do (Nowell and Jackson). Fram (talk) 13:08, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete - Lions and tigers and bears, oh my. This is natural science OR. Carrite (talk) 06:38, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment This is not OR, I have already explained that. Leo1pard (talk) 04:03, 19 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete. NOTESSAY. Random collection of species (well - OK - not entirely random - it is big cats with visible rosettes/spots as adults - Lions losing their spots as adults, and tigers having stripes). Icewhiz (talk) 13:07, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment This is neither random not is it a personal essay, I have already explained that. Leo1pard (talk) 04:03, 19 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.