Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison of the Baltic states


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Liz Read! Talk! 23:53, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Comparison of the Baltic states
I am nominating the following 3 articles:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Partial follow-up to the deletion of Comparison of the Turkic states at Articles for deletion/List of Turkic dynasties and countries. Unlike the "Turkic" page, these 3 articles are not arbitrary WP:CROSSCATs between language family and countries, and the terms "Baltic states", "Benelux" and "Nordic countries" are well-established. Other than that, however, they show the same issues, with arbitrarily chosen, SYNTHed data, of which the overall added encyclopedic value is not clear at all. A reader could also just open three tabs or windows in their browser putting the infoboxes of three countries next to each other; we don't need to do that for them. Nor do we have to assume it is more relevant or interesting for the reader to compare the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg than, say, the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark; nor that Finland is more interesting as part of the Nordic countries and Estonia as part of the "Baltic" states, when Finland and Estonia arguably have more in common with each other than the other states they are usually associated with. (With the emphasis on arguably, because it is all quite subjective. It's not an opinion I necessarily share, but I've frequently heard and seen it expressed, with the argument that Estonian is not a Baltic language, but closely related to Finnish, which is true, but the significance of that is unclear). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Lists. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:53, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete This is pure WP:SYNTH --TheInsatiableOne (talk) 10:56, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Even if we were to assume that the information there has some encyclopedic value, all could be summarized on Benelux, Nordic countries, or Baltic states. Aintabli (talk) 11:22, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Belgium, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg,  and Netherlands.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 12:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Denmark, Finland, Greenland, Iceland, Norway,  and Sweden.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 12:49, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete I was expecting a bit more to these, but no, it really is just a few parameters of the infoboxes collated together. Not necessary articles, also easily summarized elsewhere per Aintabli. Reywas92Talk 13:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, random trivia that if relevant, can be presented with secondary sources at the more general pages mentioned. CMD (talk) 14:50, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete  purely or. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  16:58, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete, per WP:SYNTH. /Julle (talk) 17:51, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete these states have barely anything to do with each other. It’s like making a comparison of anglophone states or Romance states because ay they all speak roughly the same, were part of a large former empire and eat similar weird foods right? Dronebogus (talk) 21:44, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * All three articles are about sets of countries who have a lot to do with each other. That's not something these articles make up. The Baltic states, Benelux and the Nordic countries are well-established units. /Julle (talk) 22:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Haha well it's more than just that. You do see these countries generally cooperating more closely with each other in political, socio-economic, cultural, environmental etc. affairs than with other European countries around them. But I don't think that is significant enough to be creating and hosting this still rather randomly generated "comparison" articles. That's fun stuff for a blog or tabloid as a page-filler, but everyone here seems to agree it's quite redundant and arbitrary. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * PS: Yeah what Julle says. Funnily enough, he's from Sweden and I'm from the Netherlands, we both recognise these sets of countries as well-established units, but we also both agree these 'comparison' articles should be deleted. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:40, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * You could say anglophone countries cooperate more than other regional states, since most of them are in the Commonwealth of Nations and the US is close allies with both the UK and Canada. But I don’t think there’s a huge amount to “compare” between, I dunno, South Africa and New Zealand. Dronebogus (talk) 21:59, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Dronebogus Now that you mention it, shouldn't we also delete the section Anglosphere, and the table in Anglosphere? Because that's EXACTLY what they are doing. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:17, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, it’s just as arbitrary Dronebogus (talk) 23:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Dronebogus Cool, thanks for helping me find them! I'll remove both tables if this nom results is the overwhelming Delete that is looming. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:22, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * List of Arabian cities by population should probably be nominated next, because all data are WP:SYNTHed, and there is no agreed definition of "Arabia" or "Arabian Peninsula" (as I found out at Articles for deletion/List of Arabian Houses); e.g. some definitions exclude Iraq, but this list mentions Basra. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:40, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * List of Middle Eastern countries by population uses an arbitrary definition of Middle East: 16 'countries (or dependent territories)' including State of Palestine but excluding Cyprus.
 * Demographics of the Middle East uses another arbitrary definition of Middle East (based on WP:BRITANNICA): 17 'states or territories' State of Palestine and Cyprus.
 * Middle East uses another arbitrary definition of Middle East: 18 'countries and territory' including State of Palestine, Cyprus, and Akrotiri and Dhekelia.
 * The infobox of Middle East uses another arbitrary definition of Middle East: 16 'UN member states', 1 'UN observer' (State of Palestine), 1 "De facto" (Northern Cyprus), and 9 "Dependencies".
 * List of largest metropolitan areas of the Middle East does not use a definition of Middle East at all (although any of the doubtful cases of Palestine, Cyprus, and Akrotiri and Dhekelia probably do not contain metropolitan areas that have a population of over 1.5 million), but the whole article is WP:SYNTH by the admission of the opening sentence itself: population according to different sources. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Economy of the Middle East uses an arbitrary definition of Middle East: 16 'countries' including Palestinian territories but excluding Cyprus.
 * Middle East economic integration equates Middle East with MENA.
 * Cousin marriage in the Middle East feels confident in including "Cousin marriage in the Middle East" (Afghanistan, Algeria, Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, Sudan) outside the article's scope. According to the first sentence, apparently we can lump in other Muslim countries worldwide such as Pakistan, as if all countries in the Middle East are "Muslim" [sic], even though there is also a Cousin marriage in the Middle East subsection. The second sentence equates it with the Arab world, as if all countries in the Middle East are "Arab" [sic]. The third sentence adds Arab or Islamic world, Arab countries, yet more WP:SYNTH.
 * Genetic history of the Middle East doesn't really define its geographical scope apart from Egypt, Persia, Mesopotamia, Anatolia, Arabia, the Levant, and other areas, but apparently this does include Cyprus, Israel and Palestine.
 * Mental health in the Middle East makes no attempt to define its geographical scope.
 * Only the first of these would probably neatly fall within the scope of a follow-up AfD. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:41, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Arab world is possibly legitimate, but should be moved to Member states of the Arab League, possibly integrated with Member states of the Arab League.
 * Demographics of the Arab world table: same story.
 * Demographics of the Arab world: same story.
 * Demographics of the Arab world: same story.
 * Muslim world is full of WP:SYNTH.
 * Demographics of the Middle East and North Africa does not actually define its geographical scope. It just says Debates on which countries should be included in the Middle East are wide-ranging. The Greater Middle East and North Africa region can include the Caucasus, Cyprus, Afghanistan, and several sub-Saharan African states due to various social, religious and historic ties. The most commonly accepted countries in the MENA region are included on this page. before randomly picking some countries in its subsections:
 * Demographics of the Middle East and North Africa includes "Gaza" and "West Bank" separately, plus "South Sudan".
 * Demographics of the Middle East and North Africa same but without "South Sudan".
 * Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:04, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Arab–Pakistan relations another random WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Sino-Arab relations another random WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Arab League–European Union relations another random WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Arab League–Iran relations another random WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Arab League–Russia relations the whole article is another random WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Lists of the Arab League more random WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dumps, although at least with a non-arbitrary scope.
 * Economy of the Arab League possible merge target for many of the lists/tables above.
 * List of Arab League countries by GDP (nominal) possible merge target for many of the lists/tables above.
 * List of banks in the Arab world arbitrary set of 19 countries representing the "Arab world". Rescoping to "Arab League" probably best solution.
 * List of Arabs by net worth arbitrary set of 22 rich people based on their citizenship, including 4 people who also have French citizenship. It's WP:ONESOURCE, and has nothing to do with the Arab Leage as an intergovernmental organisation.
 * List of Arab entrepreneurship initiatives similar issues.
 * Foreign relations of the Arab League is a mostly WP:UNSOURCED WP:COATRACK.
 * Arab–American relations is a mostly WP:UNSOURCED WP:COATRACK to talk about U.S. foreign military policy in the Middle East, and has very little to do with the Arab League as an intergovernmental organisation.
 * Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Australia–Canada relations another random WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Canada–United Kingdom relations another random mostly WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * China–Russia relations another random WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * China–United States relations another random mostly WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Germany–Japan relations another random mostly WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Iran–Israel relations another random mostly WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Poland–Ukraine relations another random mostly WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Russia–United States relations another random partly WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Russia–Ukraine relations another random mostly WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Spain–United Kingdom relations another random WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Switzerland–European Union relations another random mostly WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Turkey–United States relations another random mostly WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Common source for all / most of these cruft sections: User:128.117.10.25, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject International relations/Archive 6. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:46, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Austria–Germany relations another random WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Soviet Union–United States relations another random partly WP:UNSOURCED "comparison" data dump.
 * Many country comparison sections have already been removed by User:Drmies on 6 October 2020. Example:
 * removed from Azerbaijan–Pakistan relations on 6 October 2020: rm trivia
 * removed from Russia–United Kingdom relations on 20 October 2020: not relevant to the article as agreed (removed by someone else)
 * Background discussions include: Talk:Singapore–United States relations, User talk:Zeex.rice
 * Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * In many instances these tables are an affront to "summary style", and the duplication of basic country statistics to such articles virtually guarantee they'll be out of date. Draken Bowser (talk) 19:48, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. If they mention dates at all, the basic country statistics will be outdated eventually. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:04, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Disagree. Most of WP content is going to be outdated. This is a reason for updating pages (and yes, providing dates and references), not deletion. My very best wishes (talk) 19:31, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Infoboxes are regularly updated, demographics articles are regularly updated, but those comparison articles/sections? Why bother? Unless we're making some sort of Template:Excerpt construction, so that the contents of comparison tables will always synchronised and up to date, I really don't think it's worth the trouble. And even if we do, we are admitting we are duplicating contents anyway. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * All these pages are legitimate Lists supplementing main pages on the corresponding subjects. Something can be unsourced on a lot of pages, but this is not a reason to automatically delete them. My very best wishes (talk) 19:35, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying all articles I'm mentioning here should necessarily be deleted. I'm just identifying lots of similar issues across articles, and especially the country comparison sections should probably just be removed from the international relations articles that should otherwise be kept intact. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:06, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I think the arguments to delete these pages and remove such content from all main pages are strange. Consider something like page Proteases. Providing a table with comparison of different proteases on such page would be great. Same is here. My very best wishes (talk) 15:50, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I just found out this morning that an RfC about removing them altogether had been initiated on 11 June (before, and apparently completely independent of, my AfD here): Wikipedia talk:WikiProject International relations. It turns out that this saga already started in 2018, and we've still not established a consensus about what to do with such country comparison sections across English Wikipedia. For my part, I've made a passionate argument to get rid of them once and for all, based on an elaborate documentation of precedents and background discussions that I had mostly already gathered here. Never knew it could instantly be reused for an RfC about the same topic! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:49, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * There is nothing wrong with making such comparisons, but they should be made in proper sections and placed to certain context like Nordic_countries. My very best wishes (talk) 02:24, 19 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete OR/SYNTH. Draken Bowser (talk) 09:17, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge. Since we have pages Benelux, Nordic countries, and Baltic states, these "comparison" pages are legitimate WP:list additions to these main pages. They are not WP:SYN any more than any other list page. These list pages could be "merged" to their main parent pages we have, but they are better readable as standalone lists. That's why we have list pages. My very best wishes (talk) 21:26, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * In any case, it would be better to make these pages "redirect" to corresponding main pages, i.e. Benelux, Nordic countries, and Baltic states, rather than outright delete. That would allow merging their content to the corresponding main pages if anyone wants. My very best wishes (talk) 15:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * As of note, some comparison info is already provided on pages Benelux, Nordic countries, and Baltic states. What exactly needs to be compared is of course debatable. My very best wishes (talk) 20:19, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia talk:WikiProject International relations suggests that the fact that What exactly needs to be compared is of course debatable is exactly the problem. It's all random, arguable, contestable, debatable, and arbitrary. Legitimate comparisons can of course be made, like Comparison of American and British English. But for countries / international relations, I see a consensus emerging at the RfC that they have no discernable added encyclopedic value, and should be deleted / removed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:34, 18 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete as unjustified and inherently unjustifiable WP:SPINOFFs. Our articles present, analyze and contrast, without rubbing in what FUNCTIONS sentences and sections fulfill so not to insult the intelligence of the reader. As articles develop, headers may be added based on subject matter, better identifying subjects within (paragraphs also need to be written around ideas) and, eventually, spinoffs or spinouts may be justified. Everything along delimitations of content and NOT by functions! These articles, however, are written around functionality (yikes!). Much more went wrong. These are NOT lists so they must be judged by the prose. However, the prose is almost entirely to entirely (for the Benelux) missing in action. So there is no there there. There is WP:OR in two articles, where parts of North America are included into regions in Europe. Finally there is a misnomer of geography. This is an all-WP problem and well-beyond. The Benelux, Nordic countries, and Baltic states ARE geographies so identifying only some physical characteristics as "geography" spits in the face of human geography. On the bright side, I did not identify SYNTH. No objection to copying some of these tables to the main articles, into the appropriate sections. gidonb (talk) 01:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete theoretically, some version of these articles might be salvageable. What we have are a few arbitrary data tables, all of which would be better presented in some other format. Walt Yoder (talk) 23:18, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:SYNTH. So Latvia has more water than Lithuania, what is the significance of that? Or that the 3 countries have different international calling codes. The most relevant information can be included in Benelux, Nordic countries, and Baltic states, but "comparison" articles are not necessary. LibStar (talk) 00:48, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Well if Lithuania ever finds itself faced with a water shortage, it can borrow some from Latvia! This is why international relations between these two countries are very, very important. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:56, 16 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bilateral relations-related deletion discussions. LibStar (talk) 01:20, 16 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment. Some participants incorrectly assume these pages are not WP:Lists because they are formatted as tables. This is not the case. See Stand-alone_lists (Sortable lists, which are formatted as tables, such as List of social networking services.) My very best wishes (talk) 20:10, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Lists can be in table form and can even be broken up by headers, such as here, but it does not apply to these articles. These articles are NOT lists but, rather, proseless prose or plainly travesties. I ENCOURAGE everyone to follow the link you supplied and the one I supplied to understand what a sortable or tabled list looks like. It's easy to see how these are different from the AfDd articles! gidonb (talk) 22:58, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree, these are not good as standalone pages. Some info is useful, but it is either already included to other pages or should be included differently. My very best wishes (talk) 15:30, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. I explained above in some detail why comparisons should not be spinoffs. It accumulates information by function, instead of subject matter topic which is the correct way to spin off. There are more issues with these articles, also listed in my opinion above. gidonb (talk) 18:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.