Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Connie Bea Hope


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   No consensus, unless additional sources are added that establish notability, no objection to this being re-nominated in the near future. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:47, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Connie Bea Hope

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

fails WP:BIO, unable to find any reliable primary sources which substantiate claims. Article talk notes possible copyvio issue with the 'Professional career' section apparently being coming from her published obituary. – Zedla (talk) 10:04, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Does not fail WP:BIO. Midnight and I have already established, even with only the scant resources available on the internet.

In particular: A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject. She meets this criterion

The person has received a notable award or honor, or has been often nominated for them: It is very possible that this person has. That we can find no evidence on the internet doesn't mean that this is not the case. It simply means that it happened before the age of the internet. A judgement cannot be made on this claim without an examination of the appropriate media sources from the time period, which would be 1955-81, and probably before 1955 too, because there is a reason that she was offered a show when the station initially went on the air. They don't just offer television shows to anyone, especially not in that time period when it was such a new medium and it was such a gamble of whether or not it would best radio. In 1955, there were still "radio programs" on the air, in terms of actually dramatic promgramming on the radio

The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field- This one is highly probable. I do know that more than a few cookbooks were published by her and that a large number of her recipes have been published. The issue of course, most of these were published between 1955-1981 and times associated with it. I also know that what her "traveling supervisorship" consisted of for the Morrison's franchise was going to every new Morrison's that opened and basically instructing them on the proper way to cook the food. A good portion of the cooking methods of Morrison's are specifically based upon her cooking techniques and she was a major player in the Morrison's company in the 1940's up until the time that she was hired on at WKRG.

Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following- I would definitely say that this is the case. We are talking about a show that was on the air 5 days a week, at least 300 days a year, for 26 years, and which aired in a time where there was no cable or sat tv and over a coverage area where there were more than 1,000,000 viewers a day. I think it is implicit that there is some kind of cult following, and probably a larger cult following than the average congressman would have, because a congressional district will only cover the territory of half of the population of the viewership, and will by their very political nature, will be someone who people aren't following but outright opposing. It is only a matter of sourcing the information from the 1950s, 60s and 70s and that will take time because it will have to be searched by hand without the benefit of databases or internet search engines

Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment- I would argue that this is implied. It was clearly an innovative concept for 1955. You also must consider it an innovation that media exposure would even be given to an African-American in that time period. I would also say that they are very much prolific. The existence of the show for 26 years means that it has had an influence that we just don't know about because of the number of media figures who would have been in the coverage area, who would have known about this, who may have been influenced without it being known. Not all broadcasting in the nation is national or on cable. In fact, almost none of it was before 1980. It is therefore a little specious to try to apply a modum based on the 2009 situation to a situation that existed in what was a completely different world. I believe that this can be proven to some extent. However, it is going to take the kind of down and dirty research work, that everyone was once acquainted with and which used to be the basis of research, but that often seems anathema to the database and google search generation. --Genovese12345 (talk) 21:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete per lack of WP:RS. Dalejenkins | 11:18, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Comment" Reliable sources have been found. Having never been involved in one of these things I don't know how this would effect the process. However, I thought it was important to note.--Genovese12345 (talk) 20:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose Do not delete. I have added a source

I will also say that if you are going to delete this article you must also delete the article on Dot Moore. It is only fair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Genovese12345 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Note for closing admin: Please note that this same user account explicitly !votesKeep below, please do not double count this !vote. DreamGuy (talk) 19:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 *  Weak Strong Keep The case for notability is not overwhelming. But the subject is worth including. "WKRG in Mobile, which telecasts "Women's World," Connie Bea Hope has guests who cook on the program." From book Television and the wired city: a study of the implications of a change in ...‎ - Page 220 For example. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment The limited preview from GBooks confirms only that Hope hosted a TV cooking show.  From her obituary Hope has apparently only received recognition from a local chapter of an organization of which she was a charter member of, an acclaim hard to view as independent, significant, or possibly even relevant.  Nothing credible has emerged explaining the importance or significance of Hope's work, a fundamental test for inclusion, particularly in light of WP:CREATIVE and WP:ENT.  Perhaps it's telling that her name hasn't been listed as a former personality at the WKRG-TV article. – Zedla (talk) 22:48, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I upgraded to strong keep per getting at the numerous sources that well establish this individual's notability. ChildofMidnight (talk) 08:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment on Comment: The show was on television daily for 26 years and WKRG is the official CBS Station for a market of nearly 1,000,000 people and certainly over 750,000 people during the time that the show was on the air as it has a coverage area spanning more than 10 counties within three seperate states. I would also note that the person who was the original author of the article, when looking at their contributions, almost always is involved in editing articles that have something to do with the media so that they included it says something. It should also be noted that from Payton's obituary that she was the aunt of Hank Aaron. That in and of itself does not confer notability but it is an important thing to consider. It should also be noted that Dot Moore is not included in the list of former on-air personalities for WALA even though her show was on the air for just as long. In both cases, the lists only apply to members of the newscasting teams. The WKRG article also omits all of the area congressmen as having been affiliated with the station even though they were on air weekly as part of the Gulf Coast Congressional Report. All that her lack of inclusion in the WKRG list means is that they need to add a section for former on air personalities who were not part of official newscasts, not that you need to delete this article.

If it were possible to produce digitized newspapers from the 50's and 60's you would probably find a lot more material on this. It is also important to note that this website includes articles on local personalities all of the time. Harry Mabry was a local television personality in Birmingham, he gets an article. In Mobile, John Edd Thompson, A cursory review of media markets the same size shows articles on Vince DeMentri. A cursory review of WNBC's article from New York shows that a majority of current and former staff also have their own articles, even though it is also a local station. A cursory review of New Orleans area stations also shows that several local on air personalities there have their own articles as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by Genovese12345 (talk • contribs) 00:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)  Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 00:08, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Delete - non-notable local TV host in small market; weak sourcing, no real evidence of notability. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  01:25, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Maybe a bold merge/ redirect to mention her in the station article would suffice? ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete had a minor non-network show. I have my doubts also about Mabry & about Thompson. Dementri, in contrast, won multiple emmys and other awards, and is therefore clearly notable. DGG (talk) 01:57, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak keep since I'll buy CoM's obits, which promise that other coverage could be found and probably will be on CoM's fact-finding mission to Mobile and Montgomery. Genovese's verbose contributions don't help the article or the case at AfD, but if they would ever provide the source for the Newsbank thing, that would be an entirely different matter. Genovese, you could be helpful here. Delete --as much as it pains me to vote a. to delete a fellow Alabamian and b. go against the opinion of ChildofM, I do not see the notability here--not in Google Books or Google News. Verifiability, not truth: I cannot verify her notability (for either name). Should sources turn up (when ChildofM comes to visit and plows through the archives here) we can always rewrite the article. I wonder where the information came from in the first place--a very lenghty obit? Drmies (talk) 05:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the keep vote below this one. She was a pioneer. She went from being a black woman whose hands were shown but didn't have a speaking role to hosting her own show. She's included in reliable sources about television history, as noted above. She had a 24 year career in television. It's verifiable, it's worth including, and it should be added to and expanded by someone with access to good sources. The bias towards NYT coverage and its archived new stories is unfortunate. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:10, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Estella Payton was the 'black woman whose hands...' not Hope. There's no credible evidence that either were recognized for noteworthy contributions to racial relations.  Hope's great-grandson Chase Anderson Romagnano wrote a opinion piece in 2006 (page 11 of ) for the local college paper but there is no other independent reliable coverage to offset the inherent conflict of interest and unreliability. – Zedla (talk) 16:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. These details should be noted in the article as they are signifant. There a numerous sources now for this subject. I think a redirect from Estella's name, until we can get sources together for her article as well, would be helpful. No long needed. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Keep If you have newsbank, you can verify the existence of her and her notability. I don't know why people are disqualify this as a "local figure" when this person had a coverage in a three state area with a population of more than a million people. How is the sourcing weak? If it was the New York Times, no one would be saying it was weak. If there was a way to take newspapers from the 1940's, 50's, 60's and 70's this would not even be an issue. If this article was such a problem then why has it not been deleted for the past three years, which is when the original author put it up. If it was not so notable, then why did the original author, who if you look at his contribution page [], made primarily articles on media, find this worthy enough to create an article on. Why are people so eager to delete this article? What harm does it do to have an article that was clearly notable enough to someone who obviously has an interest in media figures that they created it. And if this article is deleted, then why not nominate Dot Moore for deletion as well? Why single out this article? Anyone who can maintain a TV show for 25 years in a 3 state market and who is important enough to pull celebrity guests, which she had, is notable enough to have an article. If this was a non-notable person, celebrities would not have appeared on the program. I will also say that if you delete this article, it will create a precedent whereby every article concerning "local television personalities" will be subject to deletion. I will also say that one of the editors of this article was an editor for "Wikiproject Alabama" and apparently this person thought the subject matter important enough that it was not proposed for deletion

I will also say that the importance of this article is due to the racial implications of it. It was a pioneering show in the days when television was a novelty, the 1950's and it was also an important show because it was a television show in the south where Caucasian was working as a partner with an African-American in complete peace and harmony, which set an important example during the turbulence of the Civil Rights Era. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Genovese12345 (talk • contribs) 12:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, please stop bringing Dot Moore (whoever that is) into the discussion. A lot of what you say boils down to WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. What the motivations of previous editors and contributors were, and what was on their bookshelves, and what was on their resumes, is not relevant here, nor do we even know. I've also been involved with Alabama articles on WP, and I'm just a hick. The relevance of all this, if it is as you claim it is, is obvious--but again, where is the proof? And I don't have access to Newsbank, and it's only one particular source. ChildofM's claim of "NYT bias" is specious--the NYT has all their articles available online, going back to the late 1800s. Of course sources that are available are going to be cited. The archive for my local newspaper, in Montgomery, Alabama, sucks a big one--so I don't cite it often, cause it's a hassle. I don't even know what that article in Newsbank is, since there is no bibliographical information given, so I can't even get it any other way--sloppy article writing, I'm afraid. Show me the sources, or at the very least give a proper reference so other editors can weigh the evidence. A combative attitude, combined with my inability to find anything since the article gives nothing, ensure that there is little I can do to help the article out, as much as I'd like to, esp. given ChildofM's useful and rather convincing (if only verified) argument above. Drmies (talk) 17:59, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * An hour's worth of searching, and nothing more. The Encyclopedia of Alabama doesn't have an entry on her, but that's not saying much. I have access to the Mobile Press-Register, through LexisNexis, but only from 2006 on--two hits, and both trivial. One person, who cooked a chicken at a cook-off in Birmingham, remembers watching her show; one caller to the paper made this remark, reprinted in the "Sounding Of" section: "Connie Bea cooked delicious food--*I don't get downtown much, but I always look over at Kress. You could buy anything. When they opened the lunch counter, that was one of the biggest deals in Mobile: Good cooking by Connie Bea Hope." That's it. (The Montgomery Advertiser had nothing.) I am at the end of my tether here. CoM, have I overcome the NYT bias objection? Drmies (talk) 18:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

NYT Bias I will concede that it is impressive that the NYT has a search engine that goes back to the 1800s. However, we have to remember this. The NYT is a paper that reports on many international and national issues and which has a powerful editorial board. However, the NYT, is still a local paper. The majority of its news coverage is news that pertains to the NYC area. I have searched the NYT archives myself and have found legal notices from every age of the city. Now, it is nice to read antique legal notices, but, because most of these legal notices don't pertain to dead people, they are only of a use to someone who is doing a family history that contains one of the persons involved. If an issue is an issue that is local/state/or regional and none of those things involve New York, it is probably not going to find its way into the Times unless it is something extraordinary, in which case, it would be a national newsstory anyway. It is the NYT, but it is still a paper that people get delivered to their doorstep and buy at kiosks and gas stations, just like any other paper.

Now, Newsbank, is a paid-access database that primarily serves to catalog the archives of many daily newspapers and other periodicals across the country. The Mobile Press-Register, which like most papers cannot afford to maintain its own database, outsources the storage of a digital database to them. The archives of the Mobile Press-Register in newsbank go back to late 1992, starting with 1992 election coverage. Every Press-Register article cited on this article can be found at Newsbank. The Mobile Register also links this archive on their own page. Now, you do have to pay to access this article, but I suspect that more than a few articles on this site are based on content that you have to pay to access. Most academic search engines involve pay content which are usually subsidized by the universities which students access them at. Any book on Gbooks that is not public domain will usually have a timeout limit on what you can access or not (at which point I assume payment is involved to read the rest)

http://www.mobileregister.com/archive.htm

When searching this archive I come to find that all 3 of the articles referenced in the source list are available on a pay to play basis from the Register. http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=list&p_topdoc=11. If given the time to go to Mobile and do the research at their newspaper archives (which I assume are on microfilm), I could produce probably over 1,000 articles on the subject. I could probably find similar coverage from Pensacola and from Pascagoula, also served by this market, and for which WKRG is the primary CBS station.

Before I continue I would like to say if my tone has seemed a bit brash and less professional, I do apologize. It's just a function of how I argue things sometimes.

However, I would finally like to say that this deserves to be included based on the "exposure" argument. We are talking about a media market which was around 600,000 in 1950, around 1 million when this show went off the air, and around 1.3 million today, if you add up the counties. It was on the air for 25 years. Without hard statistical data this is only a hard guess, but I think it would be reasonable to assume that between 4-6 million people have (up to 2% of the U.S. population), at some point in their lives, been exposed to the subject matter at hand. Counting various generations of people, people who have moved out of the area, and so forth. Now, compare this to say, the Governor of Wyoming. Now, yes, the Governor of Wyoming is the governor of a U.S. State.

However, there are less people in the state of Wyoming than there are in the Mobile CSA, and the Mobile media market currently has at least twice the number of people as Wyoming, so anything that is a Mobile area topic will have at least as much exposure nationally as a Wyoming state topic. In 1950, the population of Wyoming was 290,000 approximately. In 1960, it was approximately 330,000. Now according to [], the population of Mobile County, only one county in the media market, was around 230,000 in 1950 and was around 315,000 in 1960. In addition, 1960 population totals for other counties in the market pull these totals, all approx: Washington 15,000. Clarke 25,000. Baldwin 50,000. Escambia, FL 173,000.

This is only a sprinkling of counties that are covered by the market and were covered during this time period, and even in 1960, the gestation period of this show, this market had a larger population than the entire state of Wyoming and as such, a regional topic within this area would have more exposure among the national population than any topic pertaining to Wyoming. I would feel confident in saying that more citizens of the United States would have a recollection of the subjec matter at hand, if polled, then they would of any governor of Wyoming between the 1955-1981 period. I think that is an important point to make in defense of this subject's notability. Genovese12345 (talk)
 * Genovese, please be concise--this is too much too read. I'll come back to it later. Drmies (talk) 21:25, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

About Minor Media Markets I apologize if it is longwinded, but it is really a point that cannot be made by being concise because it is a compound argument/defense. I was adding this section and then it told me edit conflict so I decided to make this into a seperate section. Far from being a "minor media market", Mobile-Pensacola is currently the 61st market in the U.S. out of 210 total markets. Comparatively, New Orleans is # 53 and Biloxi-Gulfport is # 160. WKRG does cover the eastern edge of the Biloxi-Gulfport market and is the default CBS station for the entire Mobile-Pensacola market. WKRG is carried in Biloxi as well. Comparatively, El Paso, Omaha and Honululu are all located in smaller media markets than this one. [] Genovese12345 (talk) 21:40, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Genovese, if you don't give bibliographic information for the articles you found (NewsBank does not write or publish them--it archives them), then I have no way of finding them, I don't care how big or small Mobile is. Since the Press-Register before 2006 is not searchable via LexisNexis or whatever else my university has, there is nothing I can find. You could call that bias, but that's totally beside the point. The "bias" is simply caused by the fact that Mobile (and other Alabama) papers are not easily searchable online, and that's not a bias. CoM, roll that up in some bacon and smoke it. Drmies (talk) 03:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Bias. I call 'em like I see 'em. What about the sources in the article? If no one can be bothered to actually read the obituary and see what it says... well... I also found this:
 * Playground Daily News
 * Ben's Lake guests were Miss Connie Bea Hope from Mobile who...preparation of poulet a la Bea Hope a tasty concoction chicken... Friday, September 22, 1967 Fort Walton Beach, Florida
 * Playground Daily News
 * few left Special guest Mrs Connie Bea Hope from Mobile Ala...Carolyn Chalk of Fort Walton Beach has won third prize...Shop in downtown Fort Walton Beach Coffee To Feature Ceramics...tulips and seed pearls Ring bearer was the bride nephew...
 * Monday, February 26, 1968 Fort Walton Beach, Florida
 * It may be called the Northwest Florida News now. Until someone tracks these many citations I think it's best we keep this article. Doc has vacation coming soon I'm sure, and we appreciate his investigating this important subject so that we don't bias our coverage! ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Great news!!! I've gotten us access to the stories indicating the clear and well established notability of this tv personality and cooking pioneer. She worked on a long running show when there were only two channels in Mobile, which may be hard to imagine for the jetsetting googlers of Generation X like DGG and Doc. Here you go: . Complete articles just $2.95 a pop. The snippet views are probably enough to confirm notability, but I'm sure y'all will want to buy the whole article to figure out how the New York Times somehow missed this story and misled you again with their grotesque bias and neglect. Shocking! Hopefully we'll learn this time not to trust their big city lies. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The link gives me a notice that says "Your search session has expired." Words to take to heart? ;) I'm still waiting on citations (and CoM, that includes title of article, name of publication, date, page, author, etc...--the stuff I usually take care of for you...) Drmies (talk) 14:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Cooking show hostess `Connie Bea' Hope dies

Author: KIM LANIER Staff Reporter Date: January 27, 1993 Publication: Mobile Register (AL) Page: 1B Beatrice Walker ``Connie Bea'' Hope, former hostess of a local television cooking show, died Monday in a local hospital. She was 88. Mrs. Hope, a native of Mobile, was host of WKRG-TV's ``Connie's Cupboard'' for many years. Mrs. Hope long has been a fixture in the Mobile area culinary scene. She began working at the candy counter at Kress & Co. as a teen-ager. After leaving Mobile during World War II,... Click here for complete article ($2.95)


 * She's also included in this obituary of her co-host:

Television cook Estella Payton dies at age 95 Author: KIM LANIER Staff Reporter Date: December 16, 1999 Publication: Mobile Register (AL) Page: 01 Television cook Estella Payton dies at age 95 Longtime member of 'Woman's World' cast recalled for her generosity By KIM LANIER Staff Reporter Estella Payton, who for several decades entered the homes of many Mobilians through the cooking segments of WKRG-TV's long-running show, "Woman's World," died Sunday at a local hospital at the age of 95. Mrs. Payton, a longtime resident of Mobile, began her career... Click here for complete article ($2.95)

And they're referred to as the Julia Child and Martha Stewart of Alabama on the mobile.org webiste (per the link I provided you on your talk page). ChildofMidnight (talk) 15:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Nothing new, if we're talking about the 4 hits from the Mobile Register's digital archive (going back to 1993), direct search link is . Genovese has already kindly cited these in the article.  Hope's obituary is already a part of the article text, which is a basic indicator of noteworthiness -- there's evidence Hope was successful over the years as a Mobile TV personality, but still no independent recognition of noteworthy contributions which would speak to WP:BIO. Mobile.org is hardly a WP:RS. Success isn't the threshold for inclusion.  – Zedla (talk) 17:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * And yet as you state, she's received substantial coverage and recognition in the region as being highly successful and notable. And all this is without any access to the newspaper archives when she was actually on air. I'd say the case for notability is a slam dunk. Her show is even considered part of the culture, all these years after it appeared, and is cited in the "How to speak Mobile" tourism literature. She's also noted in a reliable source as being a "fixture" of the culinary scene. The show has also been cited as recently as 2006 as a symbol of racial progress in a city reknowned for its history in issues of race. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * More great news!!! The Guide to the Virginia B. Greer bottom of the page (a writer whose many articles include her interview with Alice Frazer, the last witness to Mobile’s 1897 Yellow Fever epidemic, as well as four books Give Them Their Dignity (1968) recounts the year that Greer spent teaching youth in a local church. The Glory Woods: A Hymn of Healing (1976), chronicles her personal battle with cancer. Emergency: The True Story of a Woman’s Faith and Service as an Emergency Room Volunteer (1977) is also drawn from her personal experiences. Her final book, Mobile, Talk About Town! (1985) discusses some of Mobile’s most memorable social and literary characters.) whose papers from 1942-1997 include Series 7: Audio Cassette Box 13 an audio recording of Greer’s appearance on Woman’s World, WKRG-TV, April 22, 1976. So we have yet another source and another strong indication of notability for this show. I guess we can move into speedy keep mode at this point. Great work everyone! Let's get started on Greer's article.ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * are we discussing a postulated article on Greer, or an actual one on CPH? By all means try Greer. If the books were reviewed, you might be able to show something. As for the present subject, I continue to think the evidence does not show notability. DGG (talk) 22:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment I'd like to encourage CoM to keep looking for sources, so I haven't quite got a vote yet. If someone held a gun to my head I'd probably go delete. For a bit of context: Mrs Hope broadcast to 1m people. There are (goes to check) 300m people in the US, so at any one time there are 300 food broadcasters, say. Then there's the (goes to check some more facts) 800m in Europe. So that's another 800 broadcasters. Are all these people notable? I doubt it, not unless they were the first, or the best, or they burnt down the studio, or made it nationally. I normally go and check the policies, but I'll trust the other editors here to have done that and see if CoM can make her notable. Also, I'm looking forward to people shooting holes in my logic ;-) Bigger digger (talk) 23:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment on Comment. Every governor of Wyoming is included on this site when at most, they had media exposure to an audience that, on a good day, was half the audience that Ms. Hope would have had on any given day. The only difference is that the governor of Wyoming holds an elected office. One could argue that Ms. Hope had more influence in her career in terms of members of the national population affected than any governor of Wyoming. Ms. Hope was in fact one of the first. She went on the air in 1955, and was apparently one of the original members of the station, given that it also went on the air in 1955. She remained on the station until at least 1981, which means that she had 26 years on it. The majority of CBS programming that WKRG aired did not have a quarter-century shelf-life. The Gulf Coast Congressional Report ran for a similar length of time, had a similar audience, was a similar type of program (in terms of local scope) and it has its own article. The only difference between the two really is that GCCC was hosted by a Congressmen. Speaking of Congressmen, Ms. Hope's show was traditionally carried across three congressional districts, which is more than can be said for the media exposure of any governor of Wyoming, given their having a single district. --Genovese12345 (talk) 23:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment on Comment III Speaking of which, this whole discussion about whether or not she notable based on the audience covered.

I quote from "subjective importance"   "Conversely, some subjects' notability may be limited to a particular country, region, or culture. However, arguments that state that because a subject is unknown or not well known among English readers it should not have an article encourage a systemic bias on Wikipedia. To avoid this systemic bias, Wikipedia should include all notable topics, even if the subject is not notable within the English speaking population or within more populous or Internet-connected nations. Likewise, arguments that state that because a subject is lesser known or even completely unknown outside a given locality does not mean the subject is not notable." It may be said that she was primarily known inside the local area, however, she had the same kind of broad media exposure within the WKRG area as the governor of Wyoming would have in Wyoming and, even if it is not a New York Times article, she has recieved coverage in publications concerning the national media. That people from the local area continue to reference her name and that a book on local culture would include a reference to her seems to be an argument in favor of the idea that she was a major cultural figure within her area, which as we have already established, was far larger than the state of Wyoming, stretching across at least 3 metropolitan areas, states, congressional districts.... Apparently, she was important enough that she was one of the people remembered during WKRG's 50th anniversary [] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Genovese12345 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

One caveat It is incorrect to just say that she was a "Mobile" personality, thereby limiting her influence to just that particular city, when her station did have a 3 state coverage area and when the Mobile-Pensacola market is recognized as a 2 state market. Not much smaller than New Orleans. Speaking of New Orleans, the following New Orleans media figures have their own articles: Eric Paulsen, Sally-Ann Roberts, Ronnie Virgets, and several others

Working Press of the Nation [] She was included in a list in a book called "Working Press of the Nation" in 1964. The problem is, the page she was listed on is currently unavailable (as Gbooks does with books not in the public domain) [] She also appears in the "Talk Show Directory" under "Bea Hope" in 1981, also a page unaccessible due to public domain issues. [] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Genovese12345 (talk • contribs) 00:02, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per DGG. Stifle (talk) 13:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Any show that was on for that long, and had over a million viewers, is clearly notable. How many other cooking shows brought in a black person to be on them during that period of time?  Is this the first to do so?  That would be something notable as well.  Is this the longest running cooking show ever on American television?  And not every newspaper has its archives going back far enough to talk about the person, however one apparently does, and has given them a proper review.    D r e a m Focus  13:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep The sources seem to meet WP:N and I'd say someone hosting the same show for 20+ years to a market of about 1 million people on one of the three big broadcast networks of the time would be notable by definition in any case. Hobit (talk) 14:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete for the BIO and N issues noted by DGG above. Eusebeus (talk) 17:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Per WP:CSB, I wouldn't expect to find an abundant supply of online information about someone that died in 1993 who was active in the culinary community and an ambassador for a television station. First off unless she's involved ina scandal the media coverage is likely limited to that one station, that's how media companies operate, they don't run oodles of stories on the competition. And that she's in the culinary world suggests the majority of material will be found in the food and homemaker sections of magazines and newspapers from the era - we have to be at least reasonable that these exist is quite likely unless someone's suggesting this is a hoax. It would be nice to state ___ was the highest paid cooking celebrity of the South but we go by the sources we have until more complete ones are found. Likely this will also be a trend as baby boomers start infiltrating the Wikipedian ranks and helping fill in the celebrity gaps of everything that preceeded the modern era of celebrity as we know it. I would be more swayed if any of this was highly contested but I'm extending good faith here that the efforts spent so far will alos be translated into finding a few more sources to bolster the confidence in our reporting. -- Banj e  b oi   18:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep per Genovese12345's extensive arguments. Granite thump (talk) 18:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Note for closing admin: This account is mentioned in an investigation for possible sockpuppets of banned User:Azviz. If the closing vote is close, please check to see if the checkuser has been run yet and what it found. DreamGuy (talk) 19:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Update for closing Admin The results of the checkuser investigation may be found here. The results were "Granite thump (talk · contribs) is Unlikely related". The case has been closed and archived.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 02:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep and cleanup. Some additional sourcing would be helpful. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete Locally-known individual does not translate into notability enough for a Wikipedia article. DreamGuy (talk) 19:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment  Upon reading notability. Some things pop up. Must have independent coverage in reliable sources. I believe that Midnight and I have done a fairly good job of proving that this is the case even with our scant access. The problem is, we are talking about a person whose prime period of activity was between the 50's and the early 80's and we are also talking about a person who died when the internet was in its infancy. We are also talking about a person whose greatest visibility among the living members of the population are also the same categories of the population that are most likely to be internet illiterate and most likely to also not be using the internet at all. Unanimous internet use is really the provision of people born after 1980. If you graduated high school some time before 1994, the internet is only something you learned to use over time and the same with computers. I believe that the claim that the subject is not notable is a clear case of systemic bias and nothing more. There is plenty of media coverage across three states and in various periodicals in the region from the time that the subject was active, however, this was also the time period in which the internet was not in vogue. I will be expounding on this point in a seperate area. --Genovese12345 (talk) 20:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Understanding the period television market We live in an age of digital cable and direct TV. We live in an age where we can turn on the television, pick our choice of 500 channels on any given day, all channels that are broadcast on a national basis, and many of whom, have never achieved the average daily audience that Ms. Hope's show had. I also think it is important to understand because the nature of television has changed from what it was back then. There is already evidence of celebrity guests on the show. The obit notes Jerry Reed, Jim Nabors and a few others. Apparently, an extended list of Micheal Landon's credits shows that he was on the show in the 1970s. If one would contact WKRG and ask for the documentation, or pour through the television listings between Biloxi and Destin, as well as in Hattiesburg, from this time, one would probably be able to come up with an extremely large number of celebrity guests on the show.

Ms. Hope was on the air at a time when there were 3 major networks and when a majority of locales in the country would only have more than one affiliate if they were particularly large, such as New York. At this time, Mobile only had two affiliate stations. The ABC affiliation for the region was based in Pensacola, and served the region from the AL/MS line to the area past Panama City. Still does to a large extent. Biloxi, had no CBS affiliate. Biloxi in this time period did however receieve two stations from equidistant areas, New Orleans and Mobile. Biloxi, incidentally, still does not have its own CBS affiliate. It still has two CBS stations, one from New Orleans, and one from Mobile.

This was a time period when you watched TV by adjusting a metal antenna and when you changed the channel by actually getting up and changing a nob. It wasn't seen as cumbersome to change a knob then, there weren't many stations. It is interesting to note that the remote control and cable started gaining steam around the same time.

If you consider that this was a daily program, in an area where there were only 3 stations available for a long time, and the coverage of it. If you assume that an equal number of audience members would be watching each station at any given time, and if you assume for the sake of argument, that there is a fourth dummy station, as a variable. You can find one thing. Adding up the populations of all counties served by WKRG during this time and averaging them, you come up with an average population of around 1.3 million. Divided by 4 this would be 325,000. (and many cable programs don't even have that kind of a viewership on a national scale today) Now, if you count each day as an individual view, you are talking about 1,625,000 views a week. 81,250,000 views a year. (50 wk). When the number of years comes out, it comes out to more than a billion views. If you assume that the average viewership of the program on a given day might have been higher, then these number easily account to more than 3 billion views. I would call that a very high level of exposure even if it is regionally concentrated. That is a higher level of concentration in the region for its time than many network television shows today.

I believe that scope alone qualifies it as notability. Also, the uniqueness of the topic. If you give me a few months to do the research, I can find you sources that note her associations with the Morrison's company, media from across the region in a five decade period, books in which her work appeared, magazines in which it was noted.

I'd also argue that notability does come simply from the fact that a regionally significant company like Morrison's would have a woman in management at a time when women weren't in management. She was definitely a pioneer, both for women and for television. Her co-host was a pioneer for African-Americans. She is notable and if we were discussing the similarly sized New Orleans market, no one would be questioning it. It is only because of the bias associated with the term "Mobile, Alabama" that this is even questioned, even though New Orleans and Mobile are similar sized media markets. I would argue that it is systemic bias. --Genovese12345 (talk) 22:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep as I have actually read the comments from the delightfully long-winded Genovese and applaud the diligence with which searches have been carried out. Notability for a few dozen million is just as worthy as notability for a few hundred milion... specially when representing a large portion of the country over a 30+ year span. The article improves Wikipedia by shedding a little light on a historic time in television's early history.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 02:38, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete - Can we please be more succinct in the future? Delete. I didn't find any sources, and of the sources in the article they appear to acknowledge the existence of this individual, but I'm not sure they establish notability. The number of people in the media market doesn't mean that anyone on TV in that market is notable. This individual may well be notable, which is the irony, but I don't see that from the povided references. Please point out the specific place where that is true (and I am wrong) if they are notable. Shadowjams (talk) 06:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak keep Needs additional sourcing. Revisit in a few months for a possible delete if it didn't improve. For now it should be given a chance to improve based on possible offline sources. Hobartimus (talk) 08:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete I see lots of talk about all kinds of irrelevant things but bottom line she was a local figure and there is not significant in-depth coverage in appropriate independent reliable sources to establish her notability.   Show that deep coverage in non-local media or she isn't notable. Yes things were different back then and yes quite a smoke screen has been thrown up discussing television stations and networks and the governor of Wyoming and Michael Landon and blah blah blah. All of that is totally irrelevant. Where I grew up the weatherman played Freddy the Clown on Circus Parade every day for 45 years.  Whoop dee doo. Drawn Some (talk) 21:10, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.