Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conor D. McGuinness


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There is consensus that the subject does not meet NPOL's requirements by his current position(s), along with coverage being primarily local. While a more general consideration of the body's standing (more specifically, that of its members) per NPOL could be had, there is firm consensus that CoR doesn't meet the current requirements and so shouldn't be retained pending that time. While a redirect was mooted, that consideration was significantly outweighed by the straight deletes. Nosebagbear (talk) 21:58, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Conor D. McGuinness

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Non-notable local politician. Google search shows no notability and basically unknown outside of his own county. The subject does not meet the notability criteria for politicians (WP:NPOL), in that local councillors in Ireland do not meet the expectations of an international or national office. The subject also doesn't meet the general notability criteria for people (WP:NBIO). He is the only member of Waterford City and County Council (32 members) to have an article. He is a member of various boards/agencies/committees that being a member of a political party (Sinn Féin) and a member of a county council normally entail, but nothing of national importance. Contested Prod with argument: "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage". The only press coverage is from local (Waterford based) based and does not meet WP:SIGCOV. Also, created by a single purpose account. Spleodrach (talk) 20:50, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Spleodrach (talk) 20:55, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Spleodrach (talk) 20:56, 28 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - I was unable to find any sources that would help him pass WP:NPOL let alone GNG. Missvain (talk) 00:50, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - Per nom and . In terms of WP:NPOL, the criteria is not met (seats on local councils in Ireland do not meet the expectations of an "international, national, or sub-national (e.g., province- or state-wide) office"). In terms of WP:GNG, the criteria is not met. (A search of the Irish "newspapers of record", namely the Irish Times and Irish Independent, returns only a scant few "passing mentions" of the type we might expect for any campaigning local politician. There are two trivial mentions for example in the Irish Times that I can find by tweaking search criteria. A Google News search returns slightly more local news coverage. But none of the coverage is about the subject directly, and there is not enough of it to meet WP:SIGCOV.) Doesn't meet any applicable criteria. Delete. Guliolopez (talk) 10:38, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable local politician. Lefcentreright  Talk  (plz ping) 16:19, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete not even in Ireland are county councilors default notable and there is not enough coverage to show notability on his own.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:54, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak delete - Waterford is not that large a city, but is regionally important. So an argument could be made for inclusion, but I can see both sides. Perhaps a redirect to an election page or the city's article may be appropriate. FWIW, my father's parents met there. Bearian (talk) 16:54, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * keep - the article cites several reliable secondary sources independent of the subject. I can find no mention in any guidelines that sources should not be local or regional press. The guidelines clearly state that coverage does not need to be about the subject directly, but needs to be more than a passing mention. That said several of the references refer directly to the subject. There are several extant articles on Irish City and County councillors. Article has been updated to include subject's membership of European and regional institutions. User:WestWaterfordBrigade 23:40, 2 February 2020 (GMT)
 * Comment This is first !vote from WestWaterfordBrigade, the article creator. As they have !voted again below, I struck this out. Spleodrach (talk) 20:36, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I only see one vote. Furthermore for the future you should strike only the vote, NOT the entire comment. The comments are very welcome. SportingFlyer  T · C  21:07, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * You should look a bit harder, there is the above Keep !vote and the Oppose one below at 16:58, 3 February 2020 beginning with Oppose - Per Spleodrach contention. Spleodrach (talk 21:13, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose isn’t really one of the options. Why would you strike a valid keep !vote and not a malformed oppose “!vote”? SportingFlyer  T · C  21:32, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think that User:WestWaterfordBrigade is very familiar with Wikipeida deletion guidelines. Oppose is the same as keep, call it what ever you like, so it is still two !votes. Spleodrach (talk) 22:33, 8 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete The subject is doing a lot of regional and international work, especially as a member of the European Committee of the Regions. However, it does not appear that the subject has the national or international coverage necessary to meet WP:NPOL or WP:GNG. In this body, though, there are 350 members with no direct decision-making ability. --Enos733 (talk) 05:20, 3 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Per Spleodrach contention that subject does not meet notability criteria for politicians please note that the article has since been edited to include information regarding subject's membership of the European Committee of the Regions and Southern Regional Assembly. WP:NPOL presumes the following to be notable: 'Politicians [...] who have held international, national or sub-national (e.g., province- or state-wide) office or have been members of legislative bodies a those levels'.

WP:NPOL additionally presumes notability for 'Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage'.

It does not suggest that such press coverage cannot be local or regional. That said, there is significant press coverage both national, regional and local. Here is a non-exhaustive list of some non-Waterford national and regional, and Waterford local press coverage.

National RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta (National radio station) Council Journal (National journal of the local government sector) Tuairisc.ie (national Irish-language news site( Irish Examiner (National daily newspaper) Irish Times (National daily newspaper) Irish Independent (National daily newspaper) RTÉ (National broadcaster news website)

Regional The Munster Express (regional newspaper covering the South East), , , , , and Cork Beo (Cork-based online news outlet) The subject is one of only a few Sinn Féin councillors to have their statements published on the party's national website. e.g. and

Local Waterford Today (Weekly newspaper and news website) and Waterford Live (News website) c. 45 articles WLRfm (Local radio station and news website ),, , , , and Waterford Now, , and Waterford News and Star (Weekly newspaper), , , , , , , ,

Contrary to User:Guliolopez\Guiliolopez's contention above that 'none of the coverage is about the subject directly, there is a significant amount of local coverage directly about the subject to be found in multiple published, secondary sources that are reliable, independent of each other and independent of the subject as per WP:BASIC and WP:GNG. This list above is non-exhaustive and the result of simple google searches.

I disagree with User:John Pack Lambert's assertion that the coverage listed above is 'not enough coverage to show notability'. How much is enough? How many direct references to a subject's political activities in independent, reliable, secondary sources are required to determine notability?

Its worth noting that many Irish councillors are the subjects of Wikipedia articles. Here is a non-exhaustive list. I have not included councillors whose noteriety is paritally derived from other activities (eg. artists, former pop stars, former TDs, former sportspersons etc.) Ciaran Brogan, Cormac Devlin, Roderic O'Gorman, Cian O'Callaghan, Peter Kavanagh, Charlie O'Connor, Terry Shannon (politician), Holly Cairns, Pádraig O'Sullivan, Declan McDonnell, Michael Crowe (politician), Donal Lyons, Vincent Jackson (politician), Paul McAuliffe, Gary Gannon, Micheál MacDonncha, Mary Freehill, Nial Ring, Hazel Chu and Naoise Ó Muirí.

Notability is clearly established by the recent update which adds information relating to the subjects regional and European mandate as per WP:NPOL. The 'significant coverage' test through the many direct, reliable, independent references cited above as per WP:BASIC and WP:GNG.

Perhaps a wider discussion on the treatment of biographical articles for local political figures in Ireland is warranted, however to move to delete this article prior to such a discussion, given the prevalence of mixed-quality biographical articles for other Irish local political figures, would be an error, and inconsistent with the guidelines cited in this discussion. WestWaterfordBrigade (talk) 16:58, 3 February 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Just in case somebody wants to address 's wall of text. If nobody does, I expect this to close as "delete".

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   21:38, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - Personally I had no intention of responding to that level of WP:BLUDGEONing. However, given the re-listing, I would simply note that the author's inclusion of links to several dozen news articles (in which the subject is simply mentioned in passing, and for none of which is the subject the primary topic), does nothing to address the WP:GNG concern. And the author's inclusion of links to several dozen other articles (in which the subjects are either ex-TDs, or Mayors, or party chairpersons, or otherwise not "equivalent" to the subject here), does nothing to address the WP:NPOL concern. Rather, all it does is suggest that the author hasn't read WP:SIGCOV or WP:OSE. And is otherwise more invested in interests which are external to this project than to reading/understanding/upholding Wikipedia's goals. Guliolopez (talk) 22:11, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - The sources listed by WestWaterfordBrigade are nearly all local, from Waterford or Cork. There is no evidence of national prominence, and as has been pointed out by Guliolopez, national newspaper searches only return passing mentions.


 * I had not heard of European Committee of the Regions before. It is a body of 350 members comprising local/regional politicians from all EU member states, 9 of which are from Ireland. Given the size of the body, and its a talking shop without any real powers, I'd argue that membership does not confer notability.


 * As for the list of other councillors who have articles, this is just WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Also, most of those listed are former Mayors/Lord Mayors of Cork/Galway/Dublin which on wikipedia gives them notability. Some like Hazel Chu (first Irish born chinese person elected), Cian O'Callaghan (first openly gay mayor), have other reason for notability. Admittedly some don't like Holly Cairns, who looks like a candidate for AFD. Roderic O'Gorman was nominated for deletion in 2010 by me! The article was deleted but then re-created a few years ago. I won't re-nominate just yet, as there is a good chance that Rodders will be a TD by Sunday evening!


 * Is there a WP:COI here? How does WestWaterfordBrigade know the full date of birth of Conor McGuinness? This information is not on the internet. Does WestWaterfordBrigade have a connection with the subject? As I already pointed out that WestWaterfordBrigade is a WP:SPA. Spleodrach (talk) 22:15, 4 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete Having reviewed the wall of sources above he's only really locally notable, using my test that he receives coverage above and beyond what would be expected of any local councillor, which he does not in my opinion. Since we tend to find politicians who only represent local areas in local elections and received only local coverage around their position not notable, I'm !voting to delete. SportingFlyer  T · C  05:01, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete, per SportingFlyer, as their interpretation of NPOL resembles mine. PK650 (talk) 21:59, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Do you betray a conflict of interest with your apparent familiarity with 'Rodders'? Does that explain the double standard at play WestWaterfordBrigade (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:25, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
 * comment keep  with respect Spleodrach your not having heard of the CoR says more about your lack of knowledge of this area than about the notability of the subject of this article. Membership of the CoR in itself satisfies the criteria for notability laid down in black and white in WP:NPOL - "Politicians and judges who have held international, national, or sub-national (e.g., province- or state-wide) office, or have been members of legislative bodies at those levels." This could not be clearer. Your (by your own admissions illinformed) opinion on the CoR is irrelevant here. The criteria here is met and deminstrated. His DOB is available on his public social media accounts. Given we're asking WP:COI questions here..


 * Comment. Hiya . A couple of quick things. Procedurally first. Once you have made your initial "keep" or "delete" recommendation, please consider marking further contributions as simply "comment" or "reply". Marking each note in a thread as "keep" is not in keeping with procedure. Now, to the main point seemingly raised, that being a member of the CoR automatically meets NPOL and confers notability, I would note simply that:
 * The CoR is not an elected legislative body. It doesn't draft, make, pass, or enact legislation. It is not a legislative body. Nor do its members hold an "office" (elected or otherwise) as expected by NPOL generally. (It is, as per its own terms, a "forum for local leaders to discuss common obstacles" to legislation which has been drafted or proposed by the legislative arms of the EU/EC. Namely the European Commission, Council of the EU or European Parliament.
 * Even, frankly, if the CoR were an elected or legislative body (rather than a discussion forum), the subject here is not a (full) member of that forum. The subject is an alternate member. A person who, with every respect, attends the forum if the full members are unable to do so.
 * I am delighted that the subject has been chosen to contribute to the forum. More power to him and the 658 other local politicians (329 members and 329 alternates) who also do so. But it is a significant stretch to suggest that one or all automatically meet NPOL by virtue of being full (or alternate) members of a discussion forum. EU-wide or otherwise.
 * Anyway, I'm going to step away now. As I've already broken the "don't respond to bludgeoning" rule I set myself/personally a while ago.... Guliolopez (talk) 00:35, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - Please refrain from personal attacks, my opinion is as valid as yours. Just stick to the fact, and the facts are as Guliolopez has said on the CoR, membership does meet notability guideline as it is not a legislative body. The criteria is not demonstrated and definitely not met. As my "Rodders" comment, it was a humorous aside, jokes are allowed on wikipedia but often do not travel well. I have never met the individual but I do note that my prediction that he would be elected as a TD was correct! Also, that is 3 times WestWaterfordBrigade has !voted now, you should read the Wikipedia deletion guidelines. Spleodrach (talk) 08:09, 11 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.