Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cool Herders


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Tan     39  21:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Cool Herders

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contested prod. article on game that lacks a claim to notability and lack significant secondary references Duffbeerforme (talk) 10:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Notability? The game is listed on: http://dreamcast.ign.com/objects/763/763406.html, http://uk.gamespot.com/ds/action/coolherders/index.html and http://www.gamestats.com/objects/763/763406/index.html to name just a few —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.36.103 (talk) 08:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been added to the list of video game related deletions. MrKIA11 (talk) 14:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete The sources given above establish that the game exists, but don't have any actual reviews or significant coverage. Just being mentioned or listed on a site doesn't come close to satisfying WP:N. Also, this game was never ported to the DS despite expectations that it would happen over a year ago. --  At am a chat 17:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Also saw attempt to canvass outside of Wikipedia in a forum thread warning people that this article was up for deletion. We may get more single-purpose accounts from anon IPs trying to protect this article. --  At am a chat 17:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - I added this exact message with the GOAT Store's notability thing, and I think it also applies here so I will just copy and paste it -- I've never wrote anything before, but I was browsing all independent games and saw this so I thought I would try. From what I have read, according to the standards of Notability, this company would be notable based on the fact that their games are listed on a number of web sites with reference to the official releases for the Dreamcast in the United States. If this entry is removed, it calls into question all of the entries in the Independently Developed Dreamcast Games, as they would all fail notability for the same reason. And, if all of the Independently Developed Dreamcast Games entries are removed, it would call into question a lot of the other games released for earlier consoles, such as the Panesian NES games which is where I started my reading tonight. I was looking for games not made by the original manufacturers, but were still considered complete releases. Many of these games may not be famous or even well known, but the fact that they were produced in a different way to standard releases makes them more notable for the sake of history than many of the standard releases, as not many consoles experienced such releases, so I vote for keep unless it is determined that no independent releases would ever be notable, which I think many people would disagree with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D3l8 (talk • contribs) 06:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)  — D318 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment - I added this message in reply so I'll copy and paste it as well: The fact that other stuff exists is usually not a good reason to keep an article, just FYI. And again, merely being listed on web sites isn't sufficient for notability. You make an unusual argument that something is notable because it is obscure, that's one I've never heard before. Also, I'd like to point out that my prediction of anonymous people showing up just to defend these articles because of off-site canvassing is coming true. --  At am a chat 15:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment- Also copied and pasted, since I think it still works here: While I understand what you're saying, the exact article you reference states, "If someone were, as part of their reasoning for keep, to say that every other main character in Star Wars has an article, this may well be a valid point. In this manner, using an "Other Stuff Exists" angle provides for consistency." For consistency, the Dreamcast also has List_of_commercially_released_independently_developed_Dreamcast_games, and after doing more searching last night, every single Dreamcast independent release that I could find was on this list, but only the Cool Herders entry and this one were up for deletion. I would understand the notability reasoning if all articles were up for deletion, but deleting only random ones would be inconsistent according to the Wikipedia policy. I don't understand your off-site canvassing comment, as I was looking to find out more information abut these games yesterday and found these pages through that search. I just thought I could add something to the comment that as a collector I think is legit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D3l8 (talk • contribs) 16:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Inclusion is not an indicator of notability. If other such articles meet criteria for deletion, they shall be dealt with in due time as they are discovered. Keep in mind that there is only a small number of editors compared to the tens of thousands of video game articles out there. It is not right to lay blame any inconsistencies in deletion policy on said editors. MuZemike (talk) 17:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not an WP:ALLORNOTHING choice. The status of other articles has no bearing on this article. Notability of an article is established with verifiable, third-party sources. The websites that are cited must be reliable (e.g. from reputable sites such as IGN, GameSpot, or Joystiq, see WP:VG/S). I recommend you read (or re-read) WP:N and WP:GNG for what is needed to establish notabilty, and argue based on that. MuZemike (talk) 16:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - I think that I demonstrated in my first response that according to another portion of the Wiki guidelines (which can be interpreted in different ways, of course) that the WP:OSE article provides a basis for keeping it. Having said that, using your interpretation, I searched for Cool Herders on all three of the sites that you provided, and it came up on all three of them.  GameSpot only had the DS news, but the others had news on both the Dreamcast and DS versions.  Also, I think that is is worth noting that as I tried to state in my first comment, according to Notability, "The topic of an article should be notable, or "worthy of notice." Notability is distinct from "fame," "importance," or "popularity..."  I interpreted this as meaning that they don't have to necessarily be on those sites to still be notable, but what they did has to be notable for some reason.  This game would also be noticeable specifically because it was an unlicensed game that was picked up for publishing on a viable system, even if it has not yet appeared on that system.  I have not found one other case that an unlicensed game was noticed due to an independent release on a console system, therefore making this particular release perhaps the most notable of all of the List_of_commercially_released_independently_developed_Dreamcast_games.
 * Comment - You missed that coverage of the article's subject must be significant to establish notability. A mention on a web site isn't significantly notable. I know why you think it's notable, but it still doesn't fit any of the WP:N criteria. --  At am a chat 17:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - According to the definition of the term 'significant' by the entry in Wikipedia, it needs to be more than just a passing mention but can be less than a huge book. It needs to be enough to write a short, verifiable article.  Since many of the findings about this game are news articles that are short, but are specifically written about this title (such as [], [], [], [], etc.), it would establish that the coverage is more than trivial since it is not a passing mention in another article, but articles of it's own -- although at this point the coverage is far less than exclusive.    (As a side note, being involved in this is fascinating and makes me want to participate in the rest of the site, which I had never considered before.  Great community, and I respect whatever result is chosen and think its has been fascinating to be part of the process).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by D3l8 (talk • contribs) 17:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Good to have you around, D318, and I hope you stay. In fact I'd recommend that you check out the Wikipedia Video Games Project to see if there might be something interesting for you to get involved in. As to the links you posted above, all of them but the first one amount to a brief description of the game and an announcement that it was coming out. The first link is the only substantial coverage of Cool Herders I've seen on a site that might be considered a reliable source (though I'm not sure, see the Pocket Gamer article). The other three links aren't articles, in fact the GameSpy link (which is for a game that doesn't even exist, the DS version of Cool Herders) says that Cool Herders has no actual articles on the site. --  At am a chat 04:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - There was also an article about it at joystiq [here] Darksaviour69 (talk) 12:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC) — Darksavior69 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete Doesn't meet WP:N. Nintendo DS version was never released. Game too unknown. 91.89.109.219 (talk) 20:51, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak keep per Joystiq source mentioned above. However, it's going to need more such verifiable sources to keep the article from being nominated again for deletion. MuZemike (talk) 19:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Although I think the articles listed above help it to meet verifiability criteria, it falls just short of notability, even with the joystiq source. It may be there if more reputable sources can be found, however it appears as though that is not going to happen.  If the DS version comes out, this will likely become notable and the article can be rewritten then.  Addionne (talk) 13:06, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Not as big/reputable as joystiq but there is also [1],[2] [3] [4]. But also Edge-online which is listed under WP:VG/S Darksaviour69 (talk) 13:45, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.