Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Corn pop


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus is that this anecdote does not warrant an article. In my view, the proposed redirect to Early life and career of Joe Biden, where the topic is mentioned, would make sense, but there is no clear consensus for that here. It's therefore up to editors whether to create (and then possibly challenge) that redirect.  Sandstein  08:09, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Corn pop

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

I don't think we need a stand-alone article about an anecdote from Joe Biden. Nor is it a plausible redirect. Singularity42 (talk) 19:23, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Singularity42 (talk) 19:23, 6 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Why on earth would anyone for a second consider deleting the page which I just created and posted five minutes ago? It is scrupulously cited and balanced in every way.  Talk about a snap, knee jerk reaction.  Wikipedia was once a national treasure.  Apparently, no longer... Ray.lowry


 * The page is entitled Corn Pop, why would you conclude that it is a stand alone page about an anecdote from Joe Biden, rather than a page about Corn Pop? Ray Lowry 20:25, 6 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment. If this article is meant to be about the actual person with the nickname "Corn pop" mentioned by Joe Biden, then reasons for deletion are even stronger: WP:BIO1E would apply. Singularity42 (talk) 20:50, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Early_life_and_career_of_Joe_Biden where this is summarized (though the name should be capitalized and we also have Corn Pops). Biden's anecdote got some coverage, but Corn Pop as an individual is not notable. I would encourage the author to keep in mind that "So was Corn Pop a bad dude who ran a bad bunch of boys? The world may never know…" is not an encyclopedic tone. Reywas92Talk 20:59, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
 * The tone issue can be fixed, but with reference to WP:BIO1E, it seems to me that the following remarks are instructive: "a person famous for only one event may be more widely known than the event itself, for example, the Tank Man. In such cases, the article about the event may be most appropriately named for the person involved." Setting aside the question of whether Tank Man is somehow more important or more widely known than the events that day in Tiananmen Square, it is surely the case that Pop Corn is more important and widely known than Biden's campaign rally that day, an event that was pivotal in his campaign. Goajax (talk) 00:11, 7 April 2022 (UTC) — Goajax (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete or redirect It's not written in an encyclopedia tone, it reads like an essay, plus WP:BLP1E CT55555 (talk) 21:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Answer to Comments If you looked at the citations, you would see that it is extremely likely that Corn Pop (with no s) was a real person. As to notability, I would say that when a former vice-president and major party presidential candidate declares you to be a "bad dude who ran a bad bunch of boys," and claims that you once threatened him with a straight razor, it makes you notable, especially when considering that candidate is now President. Last I looked, Squeaky Fromme has her own Wikipedia page. The suggestion that information about Corn Pop be redirected to Early_life_and_career_of_Joe_Biden is hardly a serious one. It is not the main Wikipedia page for Joe Biden, and though it references Corn Pop, readers would only end up seeing that page if they stumbled upon it by accident. Moreover, the reference to Corn Pop is not hyperlinked, and thus cannot be found by any search.  If reference to Corn Pop were added to the main Joe Biden page, it would be deleted without any discussion whatsoever in about 30 seconds and we all know that.  Let me present a hypothetical situation: A comedian makes a joke about Joe Biden and Corn Pop, or a reference is made regarding both in a TV show or a movie. If a viewer was not aware of the significance of Corn Pop/Joe Biden, that person could enter "Corn Pop" in the Wikipedia search bar, and all questions would be answered. Or another hypothetical: A student of let's say middle school age is told to find information about Corn Pop for a school project. Both hypotheticals are classic examples of how Wikipedia is used on a day to day basis.  As to encyclopedic tone, the final sentence in the article is admittedly snarky. But the rest of the article is absolutely balanced.  It doesn't make undo fun of Joe Biden.  Neither is it is written in a mocking manner. It presents the opinion of some that the story was told and used by Biden in a patronizing manner, while presenting the opinion of others, along with some documentary evidence, that Corn Pop was a bad who was a real dude.   Ray.lowry
 * Delete - no independent notability whatsoever. This is an extreme version of WP:BLP1E - the "event" wasn't even reported at the time, since it involved a bunch of teenagers. At most, Redirect to Early life and career of Joe Biden. And Ray, it hardly needs pointing out that the reason Squeaky Fromme has a page is because she tried to assassinate a sitting US President and went to federal prison for it. If she had only gotten into a schoolyard scrap with young Leslie King Jr, she would not be on Wikipedia. Ganesha811 (talk) 13:35, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, History,  and United States of America. –LaundryPizza03 ( d  c̄ ) 21:39, 6 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I think you are correct on the matter. If regarded as being important enough to be on a page it should definitely be stuck under a sub category on Biden's page. Again, im not even 100% sure its important enough to be mentioned somewhere. Cognent (talk) 19:08, 7 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Response I have made edits to accommodate the three issues presented by Wikipedia editors with the Corn Pop story. I have re-written it in a more encyclopedic style, and have omitted any snarky or opinionated comments.  I linked it to existing Wikipedia pages, and have also linked existing Wikipedia pages to it, so it is no longer an "orphan." As to notability, it was the topic of several weeks of intense media coverage, much of it very derisive towards Joe Biden, at a time when he was battling to remain a relevant presidential candidate.  William "CornPop" Morris had far more than his 15 minutes of fame.  He had more than 15 days of fame, though everyone at the time thought he was a figment of Biden's imagination. And again, the suggestion that it all be summed up in a few statements in the Early_life_and_career_of_Joe_Biden page is not practical.  Even knowing exactly where to look, it was very hard for me to even find the Corn Pop reference, and it had no searchable hyperlink.  Perhaps if the text of the Corn Pop page were placed in the Early_life_and_career_of_Joe_Biden page under its own title, say, "Corn Pop" or the "Corn Pop Incident" it could be given a hyperlink and thus show up in a Wikipedia search.  As it is, there is no practical way to find the info, requiring interested individuals to abandon Wikipedia in favor of a traditional Google search.  Is that what you want?  I have one request.  I inadvertently named the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_pop with a lower case p, and I do not know how to change this.  It creates issues with links to the Early_life_and_career_of_Joe_Biden page.  And I commend you for knowing who Leslie King Jr, was.  User:Ray.lowry
 * Redirect to Early_life_and_career_of_Joe_Biden per Reywas92 and Ganesha811. This is a case of WP:BIO1E where the subject lacks independent notability per WP:GNG. Sal2100 (talk) 19:58, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I redirected it there, and within two minutes it was deleted. The Early life and career of Joe Biden page is semi-protected. That is why a created a separate page in the first place. Ray Lowry 21:50, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
 * LET CORN POP STAY - Let me get this straight So Joe Biden makes his Corn Pop speech in September of 2019 when everyone had written him off as a serious candidate. He was mocked relentlessly by media outlets for weeks on end. They all thought the story was a figment of goofy Joe's imagination. Thousands of Corn Pop memes circulated endlessly on social media. Yet one year later, Biden had survived and was poised to unseat a sitting president.  You cannot deny that the Corn Pop story had legs. Countless people from both political parties used it to try to tank Biden's campaign. And now we learn that the tale was as real as Hunter's laptop. People once referred to the New York Times as "the newspaper of record." Wikipedia is now the world's encyclopedia of record. Somewhere there needs to be a searchable Wikipedia reference to Corn Pop so people in the future can know what this incident was all about. He is mentioned one time in the Early life and career of Joe Biden page, but there are no links to it, and it appears in no Wikipedia search.  I created a separate page for this purpose because I knew if I placed additional Corn Pop info on the semi-protected Early life and career of Joe Biden page, it would last about ten minutes.  When I did place it there, it was gone in less than three minutes. The Corn Pop page I created is fair and balanced. It is supported by legitimate sources. It is free of opinion, or mockery. It is in reference to an incident that went on for week on end that many tried to use to bury Joe Biden's candidacy. And to top it all off, Corn Pop was a real person. This article is at least as legitimate as the Tank Man article referenced in the People notable for only one event section of Wikipedia rule WP:BIO1E.  I rest my case.   Ray.lowry
 * Delete Given that the "event" for Corn Pop was Biden mentioning him, he fails WP:BLP1E. Comparing this to the WP:LASTING impacts of Tank Man or Squeaky Fromme is a ludicrous whataboutism., please do not WP:BLUDGEON discussions. Your views are noted. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:33, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but this isn't what Whataboutism is. Read the Wikipedia article on it. Whataboutism is when one claims that if x is wrong then y is just as bad or worse. But Ray and I aren't claiming that Tank Man is worse or a greater offense to the ideals of Wikipedia than is Corn Pop. Our point is that Tank Man is presented as an example -- a Platonic Form if you will -- of a case where it is good to include entries for individuals even though those individuals are primarily or exclusively known for being players in bigger events. The thesis is that Corn Pop played a critical role in a critical time period in Biden's campaign. Personally, I don't understand the claim that Corn Pop was not important. He was certainly important enough to Joe Biden to mention in a presidential campaign speech decades later. Are we trying to say we know more what is important to Joe Biden's life and campaign than Joe Biden himself does? Goajax (talk) 17:53, 8 April 2022 (UTC) — Goajax (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * "If Tank Man can stay then why not Corn Pop" is as whatabout a whataboutism I've ever heard. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:09, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: I have changed the title to include the capital "P" in the title, to address an issue brought up by Reywas92 and Ray.lowry in the course of the discussion. It was necessary to disambiguate the title because Corn Pop presently redirects to Corn Pops. This should make it easier to create a redirect (which there is support for) if the page is deleted. Sal2100 (talk) 16:36, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I didn't know how to fix the lowercase p in the title. Ray Lowry 20:24, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. Remember WP:TRUMPNOT? Not everything a president says, does, or tweets is automatically notable. KidAd  •  SPEAK  17:26, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Good one. An exhaustive search of three minutes uncovered the following Trump-related Wikipedia pages
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumpism
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_use_by_Donald_Trump
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/The_Donald
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_of_Donald_Trump
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lawsuits_involving_Donald_Trump
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steele_dossier
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonyms_of_Donald_Trump
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_Donald_Trump
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories_promoted_by_Donald_Trump
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_affairs_of_Donald_Trump Ray Lowry 13:52, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Every subject of each article you have listed, the protests, lawsuits, even the subreddit, have been reported on the news a plethora of times and each article has tens or hundreds of citations, while Corn Pop has only had a brief spike of news exposure all because they got mentioned in a story told by Biden. Jurta talk 15:02, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * 'The other guy has more', as if Wikipedia was about keeping score, is not a valid argument in a deletion discussion. Each article is evaluated individually. If there are unworthy articles that you think shouldn't exist, they too should independently be AfDed, not used as justification for retaining an equally bad article and hence dumbing down the whole encyclopedia to the level of its worst article. Agricolae (talk) 20:44, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete This is beyond obscure. There's no way this guy is even close to notable unless you rewrite the notability guidelines to include anyone that a US president has ever mentioned. Pichpich (talk) 21:08, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete This incident lacked the sustained coverage that would demonstrate independent notability overcoming WP:NOTNEWS. After Biden's term, when the unavoidable authorized and unauthorized biographies start to be published, we will get a better idea of the emphasis this particular anecdote is given, but at the risk of WP:CRYSTAL, it seems unlikely even then to receive sufficient converage for independent notability. Agricolae (talk) 02:16, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete The article itself has huge problems with coatracking. It is way more about President Biden, than about Mr. Morris. Mr. Morris is clearly not notable. The fact that part of the article is devoted to proving he actually existed and is not a pure fabrication of Mr. Biden tells us just how non-notable he was. There may be an article such as Joe Biden Corn Pop Story that would be workable, but for now I do not see any reason to give that more coverage than we already do. Mr. Morris seems to have been dead before this became even a semi covered story, and so we have no actual coverage of him in this event, so an article on him is not at all justified.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:51, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and change the title to Joe Biden Corn Pop Story. The page is already listed under Category:Joe Biden 2020 presidential campaign.  Corn Pop may be obscure, but the incident surely was not.  And if the incident is not mentioned on Wikipedia at all, did it ever happen?  Has Eurasia always been at war with Eastasia? Ray Lowry 20:02, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Having a Wikipedia article is not the determination of whether something exists. This is not Google.  There are clear policies about whether a subject has a Wikipedia article.  Those policies have been cited extensively by those supporting deletion of the article.  So far, your arguments have come down to WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS ("That article exists, so why shouldn't this article exist"), WP:ITEXISTS ("By not having a Wikipedia article, we are denying it's existence"), WP:INTERESTING ("People who are interested in the subject will have to search Google instead of Wikipedia, so we should keep this article"), and to some extent WP:ITSINTHENEWS ("It was reported on in the news when Joe Biden mentioned him") (although that hasn't been the main argument in favour of keeping it).  None of those are policies for keeping an article.  Singularity42 (talk) 21:03, 12 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete POV narrative weakly sourced elevation of anti-Biden political campaign WP:BLP disparagement. SPECIFICO talk 14:10, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. As per WP:NOPAGE, this article would be better off as a few sentences in a different article. I'm aware that you have attempted at doing this,, but please be aware of WP:UNDUE as most of your attempts were reverted per that. Jurta talk 11:48, 13 April 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.