Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Corned beef sandwich


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus.  MBisanz  talk 02:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Corned beef sandwich

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Fails WP:N, could possibly be mentioned in passing in the Corned beef wiki. TrulyBlue (talk) 09:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete I tried going with a redirect but the owner kept reverting. Darrenhusted (talk) 09:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Is notable; one of the first foods in outer space Gus Grissom snuck one on.-- Gen. Bedford his Forest 10:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's an erroneous conflation of notability with your subjective opinion of importance. Notability is not subjective, and requires non-trivial coverage in multiple independent sources.  The historical sources that document the Gemini missions actually say nothing at all about corned beef sandwiches.  They go into detail about the resultant changes in disciplinary procedures at NASA, though.  Such sources don't demonstrate notability, because they don't say anything about this subject.  What they support is not this article but the content at Gemini 3. Uncle G (talk) 12:28, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * With respects Uncle G, in "Detailed Biographies of Apollo I Crew - Gus Grissom" by Mary C. White at History.NASA.gov there is this specific quote about 2/3 of the way down the article page: "I was concentrating on our spacecraft's performance, when suddenly John asked me, 'You care for a corned beef sandwich, skipper?' If I could have fallen out of my couch, I would have. Sure enough, he was holding an honest-to-john corned beef sandwich." (46) John had managed to sneak the deli sandwich, which was one of Grissom's favorites into his pocket. As Gus sampled the treat, tiny bits of rye bread began floating around the pristine cabin and the crew was just about knocked over by the pungent aroma of corned beef wafting through the small confines of the spacecraft. "After the flight our superiors at NASA let us know in no uncertain terms that non-man-rated corned beef sandwiches were out for future space missions. But John's deadpan offer of this strictly non-regulation goodie remains one of the highlights of our flight for me." Wouldn't History.NASA.Gov be a reliable source? I also found reference to the sandwhich at Spceline.org, DavidDarling.info, datamanos2.com, in "Dark Side of the Moon" by Gerard J. De Groot... and there are more. Not trying to be a wise-ass, but this sandwhich does seem to have non-trivial coverage in reliable sources.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 21:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, Grissom may have taken such a sandwich with him, but does that make the concept of the particular sandwich notable? That article is about the taking of an item in space, not corned beef sandwiches in general.  Neville Chamberlain waved a piece of paper on his return from talks with Adolf Hitler - far more notable than the Grissom incident, but there's no Piece of paper wiki, indeed nor should there be, as the concept is so trivial.  TrulyBlue (talk) 21:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I would agree that the article itself needs to spend more time on the history and utility of of corned beef sandwich itself, but might then include references inre the sandwich's place in modern history (such as Grisom's). I have found sources that may be used to improve the article: IrishCulturesandCustoms.com, FoodReference.com, WhatsCookingAmerica.net, Instructables.com, ChowHound.Chow.com, Foodhistory.com, etc. There is plenty to make the article properly encyclopedic.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 21:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * None of those references mention the corned beef sandwich in any sense usable for WP:notability. They concern Reuben sandwiches; one individual's liking for corned beef sandwiches; and how to make some kind of spread from corned beef. TrulyBlue (talk) 12:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That text rather proves my point. It says not a thing about corned beef sandwiches.  Read it; then ask yourself what you have learned about corned beef sandwiches.  The sandwich might as well have contained bacon, for all the information the text gives you about this type of sandwich.  The whole "But there was a corned beef sandwich in space!" argument is simply grasping at straws.  We have the incident documented at Gemini 3, where it belongs, because that is a subject that those sources do inform one about. Uncle G (talk) 20:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep as worth expanding. No need to delete.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 21:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep To my knowledge, this is the third time that someone has attempted to delete this article. For the reasons stated above, I support the article. It is ridiculous that people try to keep having it deleted when it keeps surviving all of these attempts to get rid of it. --Bravo Plantation (talk) 11:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That rationale essentially amounts to gaming the system, and holds no water. Surviving speedy and proposed deletion does not mean that an article should be kept.  It simply means that it does not fall within our deliberately narrow speedy deletion criteria, and its deletion was protested (in this case by you, the article's creator).  If you want to make an argument that does hold water, please cite multiple independent and reliable sources that cover this subject in depth, to show that a full article can actually be built here.  Per our Deletion policy if there's no possibility of writing verifiable content without original research, there's no possibility of an article.  And per Notability, if there's no significant coverage in reliable independent sources, the content does not warrant a standalone article. Uncle G (talk) 12:28, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * @Bravo Plantation, just because there is an article for another type of sandwich does not mean there should be one for this. Each article has to assert its own notability. And the deletion process is clear, first redirect, then PROD and finally AfD. The CSD for this page was turned down because "speedy declined, not A7, has long history", this just means that the wrong CSD category was used. @Bedford, Uncle G is right, your expansion only proves that this bares a passing mention in Apollo III, it does not make this sandwich notable. Darrenhusted (talk) 12:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * So why were you so pointy?-- Gen. Bedford his Forest 13:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete, a brief mention that such a sandwich was snuck onboard Apollo III does not make the sandwich notable. Any notable person may go on record as saying they have a particular fondness for, say, crisp sandwiches but that would not in itself confer notability. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete It adds nothing to the content at corned beef and Gemini 3, and only attempts to establish notability via its loose attachment to the latter. Kevin Forsyth (talk) 13:05, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. The Reuben sandwich has its own article; I fail to see why this shouldn't as well. Fumoses (talk) 13:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is no reason to keep this article, try WP:N as a reason to why this article fails. Darrenhusted (talk) 13:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Reuben sandwich shows the answer to that one. There are sources that document the (disputed) origins of, and variations upon, the sandwich.  As I said before, if you want to make an argument to keep that actually holds water, unlike the rationale that you have used, similarly cite some sources that cover this subject. Several of the sources in Reuben sandwich are the results of my trying and so far failing to find sources that discuss corned beef sandwiches in depth, by the way.  Reuben sandwiches are documented by the world at large.  Corned beef sandwiches are, it seems, not. Uncle G (talk) 14:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The purported image of a corned beef sandwich, added to the article by Bedford in an effort to prove xyr argument made above, in fact is self-defeating, and only serves to reinforce what I just wrote. It isn't a picture of a corned beef sandwich.  It's a picture of a Reuben sandwich.  The cheese and sauerkraut are clearly visible as layers in the sandwich.  This is a corned beef sandwich. Uncle G (talk) 19:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Swapped them- though it doesn't look like one in the UK, which looks like a 'normal' sandwich, and this one doesn't look pleasant to my unsophisticated food tastes.:) Sticky Parkin 22:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. Kevin Forsyth said it best: no notability for this food item other that loose transference from Gemini 3. Why can't this trivia be mentioned in the article on corned beef? VG &#x260E; 14:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete A "corned beef sandwich" is not a notably distinct food item.  Or will we have articles for Pastrami sandwich, Ham and turkey sandwich, Turkey and bacon sandwich, Eggplant sandwich, Egg-salad sandwich, etc.?  Or how about Vegetable lasagna, Four-cheese lasagna, Eggplant lasagna, Vegan lasagna, and Ground turkey lasagna?  I could go on and on...  It makes sense to have an article for Reuben sandwich, because it is a notably distinct food item with certain defining characteristics.  But a corned beef sandwich could be anything that includes at least one piece of bread and corned beef.  Not notably distinct. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Going by the precedent set by Vegetable lasagna, I don't have a problem with making it a redirect to Corned beef or Sandwich. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom as this is not a notably distinct food item. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a poor argument as usual.   coccyx bloccyx  (toccyx)  17:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with Jaysweet, redirect to corned beef, as the existence of such sandwiches is obvious and there's nothing wrong with the title. Nyttend (talk) 18:46, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I would love for this to be kept, as the first sentence of this article gave me much laughter, but redirect to corned beef. While the story of this item being smuggled into space makes a fine addition to the Gemini 3 article, I don't think that this alone makes the subject of this article notable in its own right. Saying that, if we could find some reliable sources discussing the history and cultural importance of this delicacy then I think an encyclopedic article would be plausible, maybe something like the tuna fish sandwich article. Wiw8 (talk) 22:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  23:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Is there a 'food in space' page? if so merge this there. -May- be notable as the first sarni in space, maybe. Tuxraider reloaded (talk) 01:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There's Space food. The paragraph I typed could be used for that article and the Gemini III article.  As a child, one of my heroes was Gus Grissom; even dressed up as him for school once (although looking back I think I looked more like a Klansman).-- Gen. Bedford  his Forest 06:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep as iconic. It's the sandwich specifically, with respect to NY at any rate. DGG (talk) 17:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Specifically what are you talking about? What content from this article do you suggest keeping and based on what sources?   coccyx bloccyx  (toccyx)  18:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that DGG is also conflating these with Reuben sandwiches, which (according to one story of their origins) were invented in New York. Uncle G (talk) 20:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete There's nothing especially notable about a corned beef sandwich that couldn't be dealt with in corned beef Stephenb (Talk) 12:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge to corned beef. It is a common deli sandwich, and so would not be an unexpected or unusual search term.  The material about it going into space is not in the conrned beef article so there is material worthwhile merging. -- Whpq (talk) 16:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Redirect (or Merge) to corned beef, where the sandwich is already mentioned. No need for a separate article. Geoff (talk) 20:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.